Quote: ifallwerelikemumby "Only that Gateshead were removed from SL all their playing staff and administrative staff were transfered to what was Hull Sharks and SL funded the new club to the tune of £1.25 million over 2 years to keep the Hull club alive.'" they weren't removed, they ceased to exist as they were about to go bust! hull fc asked to play in the then northern ford premiership but some clubs chairmen at the time, (mainly our smaller neighbours) blocked that route hoping hull fc itself would go bust, only then the RFL stepped in and offered the two teams the money to merge with the gateshead board deciding to fold and move all admin and playing staff to hull fc! hull fc didnt kill off gateshead superleague club, the fans that stopped going did that as they were only getting 1000-2000 fans by the latter stages of the season as you can see by this match report! www.hullfc.com/first-team/match/ ... under-6-25

Quote: ifallwerelikemumby "Only that Gateshead were removed from SL all their playing staff and administrative staff were transfered to what was Hull Sharks and SL funded the new club to the tune of £1.25 million over 2 years to keep the Hull club alive.'" they weren't removed, they ceased to exist as they were about to go bust! hull fc asked to play in the then northern ford premiership but some clubs chairmen at the time, (mainly our smaller neighbours) blocked that route hoping hull fc itself would go bust, only then the RFL stepped in and offered the two teams the money to merge with the gateshead board deciding to fold and move all admin and playing staff to hull fc! hull fc didnt kill off gateshead superleague club, the fans that stopped going did that as they were only getting 1000-2000 fans by the latter stages of the season as you can see by this match report! www.hullfc.com/first-team/match/ ... under-6-25

Regarding the Hull Sharks/Gateshead merger.....

'Andrew Whitelam, a Super League spokesman, said: "The clubs recognised this was an extremely important matter, and the final decision was not taken lightly. They gave unanimous support to the merger after considering every possible option to keep Super League in the north-east and to keep the Hull club alive.'

Seems to have been sucked down the memory-hole on Humberside.

Back to the issue at hand, I hope this matter puts and end to supporters buying into the façade of player loyalty. The vast majority of players would cross the the road for more money, home town heroes included.

Likewise clubs do not owe professional players anything other than to honour the terms of their contract. Players are not fans, some do not even care that much for the sport, they just happen to be able to make money playing it. Obviously, there are exceptions to this too.

But like the Bulls if the RL had not stepped in Hull would have gone bust. You were saying why should the new Bulls owner get all the players contracts, well I guess Hull FC got all the contracts of those players from Hull Sharks and Gateshead (well those they wanted to keep) so why say our new owner should not get them, he will have to honour them.

I think playing would have been notice to transfer to the new owner but also not notifying the owners or potter or whoever that he doesnt consent, i would assume means he will be TUPEd across!

TUPEd regs say they have the right to not consent and therefore walk but it doesnt give them an unlimited period or any type of standard form of acceptance from what i can see so merely not raising anything in a reasonable time period i would class as acceptance!

Am sure we will find out more in the couple days or weeks!

The players have 2 weeks from the 31st August to inform the club that they do not consent to their contract being transfered under the TUPE as i understand it regardless of playing in the Catalans game

I've been tupe'd myself in the last 2 years! Continuing normal duties beyond the cut off date is seen as acceptance of the new contract, and the signing of it is a formality, although like all legal formalities it does have to be done ( especially if you think your empoyer might not want you to tansfer across!). So any player who on any day in the last 10 has trained as part of their routine as a bulls player, has effectively accepted to transfer their contract to the new company.

I am absolutely disgusted withy Craig Kopzcak, and if as expected he signs for Huddersfield, the Giants organisation. Guilfoyle was seen as a villain by many, but the players were paid every month, and almost on time, with one payment being a day late. He knew that the only asset the club had was the players and resisted some pretty strong temptation to sell players, knowing that with the top players gone, the club was a less attractive investment! for pity's sake, the people supporting, training, and treating Kopzcak have been doing it for free since July! This shows a lack of respect for the fans, and the people who have pulled out all the stops to keep the club going! He is totally lacking any class or respect!

I understand that the players have bills ot pay and families to feed, but the timing of this was appaling! the week of two matches that could have seen us in the playoffs! I am also sure that some of our squad have offers on the table from clubs in case we dont get in Superleague, but at least they have done the honourable thing and played on!

If he ends up at Huddersfield, then the esteem that their club, and some individuals involved in the managment of that club is held by Bradford fans will be tarnished, and rightly so! This time last week, I finished reading Robbie Paul's book and was thinking just how much of a Bradford legend he still is. Over the last 48 hours that opinion has chnaged somewhat! The same to a similar degree applies to Paul Anderson.

The giants want to hurt us as they think that our demise will lead to their crowds growing. Lets hope that they are proven wrong!

Sounds like Whitehead isnt happy with the way Kopczak has gone about things according to T & A

The Cheerleader/caterers/printers and everyone else is owed money by Bradford Bulls Holding Company Ltd - they have now gone bust.

The trading name Bradford Bulls has been transfered (or "bought"icon_wink.gif by a new company OK Bulls Ltd, they don't have to pay the Holding Companies debts. They would have to pay any debts in the name of Bradford Bulls (note soley Bradford Bulls, not Bradford Bulls Holding Comapny Ltd) but since there were no debts in this name then they do not have to pay anything. The contracts for the players are held by Bradford Bulls, and as such are covered under TUPE rules and still valid (but with an option for the players to refuse to TUPE)

For what it is worth I hate holding companies for this exact reason, but this iis the bones of the situation. Non of the creditors had deals with Bradford Bulls (though they might have thought so), they had deals with Bradford Bulls Holding Comapny Ltd. It's a legal loophole designed to screw over the "little man" but there is not much you can do about it without re writing the law.

With regards to Kopczak - as I see it he has resigned under TUPE rules which he is fully allowed to do - however Bradford will still hold his player registration with the RFL until 2013. Legally Bradford Bulls will not will a argument about him leaving the company, but the RFL could rule that to transfer his registration whoever he has gone to have to pay the Bulls, or they could rule that he is unable to play until he can file a new player registration in 2014, but they could also rule that due to situation we have been in that he was allowed to seek alternative emplyment - it all come down to what the RFL decide and I don't see why we need need solicitors for that.

Yep happened here too about three years back. Carrying on working is classed as acceptance but you get a period of time (14 days rings a bell, could be wrong) from the date of the transfer to consider your options, take legal advice etc. You can decline to move over up to this point but you won't get paid for any time worked inbetween if you choose to resign your position. Once this deadline lapses you are part of the new company and new contracts issued for signing. So in theory whether they've played since or not all players have until friday to notify the club of their desire to leave and become free agents, if they don't do this then they are staying.

At least thats how it was explained to us at the time!

Sorry but that is all completely wrong.

Don't get hung up on the word "holdings". Bradford Bulls (Holdings) Ltd WAS the trading company. (There is no entity called "Bradford Bulls Holding Company Limited" - and never has been). In this case, the company never was a "holding" company in the more strict sense of the word - it was only ever called "Holdings" as far as I can see because it had subsidiary companies, and I suspect the lottery company had to be a separate legal entity at the time for some reason.

OK Bulls would NOT have had to pay the debts of ANY other entity - be it Bradford Bulls Ltd or Uncle Tom Cobleigh & All Ltd. There is no "legal loophole". There has been no abuse of any "legal loophole". It is perfectly clear everywhere - or should be - what legal entity you are dealing with.

"Bradford Bulls" is anyway just a brand name, and therefore an intangible asset of the entity that owned it. There was and is no legal entity called "Bradford Bulls". Bradford Bulls Ltd is actually the lottery company.

Nothing whatsoever untoward has happened simply because of the word "holdings". Total red herring.

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't it the inability to service the cost of player's contracts that caused the club to go into administration?

And now the newco has taken on those very same players contracts and with less SKY money to service them!

It beggars the question(s), does the newco have the means to service a salary cap of (say) £1m next season or has the exercise (as I suspect) of transfering over contracts been a means to enable them to asset strip by selling players? I think Kopczak's decision (and the Hull FC defeat) speaks volumes. The price of each player shot up after the sale and those who didn't opt out of TUPE may now face even more uncertainty and the likelihood of being asked to reduce their contract values if they stay.

Of course, I am ssuming the newco isn't cash rich. I base this assumption on how the buy-out of £250,000 (of the oldco) is in 2 instalments. It hardly suggests the new owners have loadz of cash, does it. I reckon a number of Bulls players will regret not opting out. They still have the opportunity to do so - a good employment lawyer can use mitigating circumstances and the fact all of the players were given permission to seek new clubs by the administrator prior to the club being sold. Those players who signed notional deals with other clubs will be well within their rights to leave (as far as I am aware).

TUPE Regulations state. 'If your conditions of work have been worsened by the transfer , you have the right to terminate your contract and claim unfair dismissal on the grounds that actions of the employer have forced you to resign. You cannot make this type of claim solely on the grounds that the identity of their employer has changed unless that change is significant and to your detriment;'

Given the above it could be an interesting legal debate.

Ah, a long running legal battle, excellent, we haven't had one of them in a while, and given our track record what could possibly go wrong?

IMHO, any player who doesn't want to play for the shirt next season needs to leave. There is no point keeping players like kopout if they don't want to be here (for whatever reason). Any player at the club would be right to consider his options given whats happened this year, but I think there are ways to do it and ways not to, and the only real way we know this was not the right way is Whiteheads comments in the t&a. If Kopout had talked to the players last week, kept it quiet in the media and the news was released today I don't think I'd have a problem with it, but to turn your back on your teammates on the eve of the final game of the season stinks, and says all I need to know.

Hopefully we can move forward with players that want to be here once the rfl give the new owners some clue what league we'll be in and the new owners can then sort out the squad. The longer it drags on, the more likely it will be that players sort out alternatives, and you can't blame them now the seasons commitments are over. (just a thought, if the tupe deadline for consideration by the players is this friday (?), whats the odds on the rfl telling the club what league we'll be in on sat? thus forcing some players to pick up other options before Fri?)

Adey,

This is of cause correct, and I wasn’t trying to claim that anything untoward had happened, I was simply trying to point out in layman’s terms the difference between the sporting team Bradford Bulls and the company that runs it – and show how this differentiates between the right to collect a payment for debt from the new co (which you can’t) and the right of the new co to continue the contracts of the old co (which they can) – no easy task and is why the law is so complicated (and lawyers can charge so much).

That said I wasn’t aware that the holding company in this case was in fact the same as the trading name Bradford Bulls, it does make me wonder why bother having a holding company at all but as you say that may be because of the different companies under one “brand” if the lottery and such are separate.

I still stand by my point though that holding companies are generally (though maybe not in this case) a legal loophole to allow debts and liabilities to be hidden in a separate company to what people believe they are dealing with, this of cause is just my opinion and should not be taken as fact. Although it is correct that it was probably clear in most contracts that people are dealing with a holding company your average “mum and dad shop” who (after the taxman) are the ones who are losing out here won’t understand the ins and outs of this and will (again mistakenly) think that the holding company and the trading company are one and the same.

Again, from what you say that wasn’t the case this time (and I don’t know enough of the ins and outs to say otherwise) but my opinion is that generally this is the case, which is why I call it a legal loophole – because its legal but 99% of people won’t understand what is happening.