FORUMS > Bradford Bulls > Maybe tax isn;t so boring after all? |
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| rlHave a look at thisrl
Those who I bored to tears on here about the HMRC tax investigations - and who maybe twigged which club I was assuming would be especially badly affected - might see a bit more clearly why, now?
The really interesting bit is the implication that the players' contractual arrangements looked to have allowed the club to make the player responsible for any additional tax. That means the club can stay within the cap but the player is stuffed. Good work by the lawyers of the affected club/s.
Interesting times ahead...
Oh, and our Huddersfield hyenas who are revelling in our misfortunes may not be quite as happy now either?
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| May mean that as Macca said earlier in the season, we still have money if the right player becomes available.
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| Quote: Ewwenorfolk "May mean that as Macca said earlier in the season, we still have money if the right player becomes available.
Bear in mind that we'll unlikely get to know the extent to which these issues, if at all, affect us?
If the RFL keeps the salary cap as is, then I suspect that certain other clubs will be significantly worse affected relative to us. But if the RFL increases the cap to accommodate those clubs, then it would very likely be to our severe detriment as things now stand.
I think its the clubs themselves who vote on the cap and other rules, so this could prove very interesting. If Leeds are significantly implicated, I'd bet the house on the cap being increased.l
But...still all remains speculation, lets remember that.
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| I can't see them upping the cap in the near future when teams like Cas, Wakey and Hull KR are doing so well. Look at Wire; the money isn't helping them. The vote would probably go:
For Increase: Stay the same:
Leeds Bradford
Wire Cas
Wigan Wakey
Hull FC Hull KR
Huddersfield Salford
Saints Celtic
Harlequins
Not sure about Catalans, but I think an increase would be voted against by the majority.
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| What is perhaps more interesting is the fact that the RFL, as the RFU has done, will work with the Inland Revenue to find a way out of this. It's fairly obvious that if you were a Rooney or a Gerrard or Beckham then your Image value is considerable. It could be said the same about Johnny Wilkinson but the Tax people are looking at people like Michael Monaghan who cleary have no Image value and are using it as a tax loophole. Now here comes the crunch.
Clubs affected are having to submit their books to the Inland Revenue who will then sit down with the RFL to sort it out. The RFL will then find out which clubs have been using the 'Singapore Sling' to 'cheat' the Salary Cap. My information is that it is quite a lot of them! The RFL will have that information but, given their reluctance to penalise certain clubs - because they have been obsessed with getting rid of the Big Four - will they penalise these clubs now for years of deliberately cheating or will they sweep it under the carpet. Don't hold you breath waiting for punishment if Leeds are found to have cheated.
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| Quote: Ewwenorfolk "I can't see them upping the cap in the near future when teams like Cas, Wakey and Hull KR are doing so well. Look at Wire; the money isn't helping them. The vote would probably go
Not sure why Hudds would vote in favour, Can they afford to increase their salary bill?
Wont the fudge be that any extra payments made by the clubs in order to compensate players with existing contracts will be disregarded for the purposes of the cap?
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| Quote: Tiger Beer "Clubs affected are having to submit their books to the Inland Revenue who will then sit down with the RFL to sort it out. The RFL will then find out which clubs have been using the 'Singapore Sling' to 'cheat' the Salary Cap. My information is that it is quite a lot of them! The RFL will have that information but, given their reluctance to penalise certain clubs - because they have been obsessed with getting rid of the Big Four - will they penalise these clubs now for years of deliberately cheating or will they sweep it under the carpet. Don't hold you breath waiting for punishment if Leeds are found to have cheated.
I guess that would be determined whether they believe they have broken the tax law or just used a loop hole. If it's a loop hole i guess they will be told to stop for next season and if it's a case of broken....they should be penalised, no if's, no but's
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| Quote: Cibaman "Not sure why Hudds would vote in favour, Can they afford to increase their salary bill?
Wont the fudge be that any extra payments made by the clubs in order to compensate players with existing contracts will be disregarded for the purposes of the cap?'"
Possibly, Hudds have got a bit of cash now - Signed Fulton and are in talks with Fien for next season.
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| Quote: Tiger Beer "What is perhaps more interesting is the fact that the RFL, as the RFU has done, will work with the Inland Revenue to find a way out of this. It's fairly obvious that if you were a Rooney or a Gerrard or Beckham then your Image value is considerable. It could be said the same about Johnny Wilkinson but the Tax people are looking at people like Michael Monaghan who cleary have no Image value and are using it as a tax loophole. Now here comes the crunch.
Clubs affected are having to submit their books to the Inland Revenue who will then sit down with the RFL to sort it out. The RFL will then find out which clubs have been using the 'Singapore Sling' to 'cheat' the Salary Cap. My information is that it is quite a lot of them! The RFL will have that information but, given their reluctance to penalise certain clubs - because they have been obsessed with getting rid of the Big Four - will they penalise these clubs now for years of deliberately cheating or will they sweep it under the carpet. Don't hold you breath waiting for punishment if Leeds are found to have cheated.
Good to get the view from the club on this . Accords pretty well with what I have surmised and deduced. Just wish your usual source had been a bit more clear on the extent to which we are implicated, if at all.
And funny how its not just me been saying don't expect any sanctions if Leeds are implicated...
I invented the term "Singapore Parachute" (Unless anyone beat me to it!) but I think I prefer the "Singapore Sling" better cos it makes it clearer that the money wings its way to Oz without hitting the ground, and just a little bit faster than the jet with the player on...
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| Quote: Ewwenorfolk "I can't see them upping the cap in the near future when teams like Cas, Wakey and Hull KR are doing so well. Look at Wire; the money isn't helping them. The vote would probably go
Out of interest, why would Leeds be in favour of an increase? condisdering they have not spent the allowed cap fully since the concept came in.
You seriously believe that GH would encourage spending more?
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| Quote: Tiger Beer " Don't hold you breath waiting for punishment if Leeds are found to have cheated.
No Team has cheated though have they??? Whilst I appreciate those using image rights have done things that may be constrewed as "not within the spirit of the competition" at the end of the day they've found a loophole and exploited that. Im of the belief "full credit to the club" thats got away with what it can! Whats done is done and I personallly believe the RFL won't retrospectively punish clubs for what they have done. What I think should happen (and Im sure is in the pipeline) is that the RFL should close the loophole and forget about it.....£1.6 million is plenty
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| it'll be interesting to see how many clubs can persuade players to take a pay cut so they can fit in the cap when they have to start paying tax/NI. Players will rightly claim they have a contract so we might either see quite a lot of fringe players being released to pay for the difference or a couple of high profile overseas players looking for a new club next year.
If the RFL write off past indiscretions as being within the understanding of the rules at the time and start policing it from now will we see more players available mid season?
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| Quote: Northern Lad "I guess that would be determined whether they believe they have broken the tax law or just used a loop hole. If it's a loop hole i guess they will be told to stop for next season and if it's a case of broken....they should be penalised, no if's, no but's'"
I refer the honourable gentleman to the posts I have made here and elsewhere on this subject earlier, when I've tried to explain it.
Once again - its NOT a loophole that's been closed - you need legislation for that. Its certain clubs interpretation of the tax law not according with that of HMRC. And HMRC appear to have won the argument (its not a new issue - been going on for a few years in professional sport). That means we are talking underdeducted and underpaid tax and NIC going back several years.
The issue now appears to be resolving the amounts that implicated clubs have to pay - and I stress, for BACK tax - and resolving a common framework that HMRC is happy with going forward.
Which means that implicated clubs have effectively - and with the benefit of what we (think) we know now - been cheating the cap over the years, even if they claim (or even believe) that they were operating within the rules. But, as I keep saying, I don't think for one minute the RFL will take retrospective action, regardless of the moral arguments.
And, as I keep saying...interesting times.
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| Quote: SDB "No Team has cheated though have they??? Whilst I appreciate those using image rights have done things that may be constrewed as "not within the spirit of the competition" at the end of the day they've found a loophole and exploited that. Im of the belief "full credit to the club" thats got away with what it can! Whats done is done and I personallly believe the RFL won't retrospectively punish clubs for what they have done. What I think should happen (and Im sure is in the pipeline) is that the RFL should close the loophole and forget about it.....£1.6 million is plenty'"
See my post above.
Its not a loophole. It appears to have been shown by HMRC to be tax evasion. That's cheating?
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| Quote: SDB "No Team has cheated though have they??? Whilst I appreciate those using image rights have done things that may be constrewed as "not within the spirit of the competition" at the end of the day they've found a loophole and exploited that. Im of the belief "full credit to the club" thats got away with what it can! Whats done is done and I personallly believe the RFL won't retrospectively punish clubs for what they have done. What I think should happen (and Im sure is in the pipeline) is that the RFL should close the loophole and forget about it.....£1.6 million is plenty'"
But some have cheated. Image Rights have to be included in the declaration to the RFL. These are not being questioned, just the amount given to players - the percentage. But the ones who have used EBT's and not declared them to the RFL will now be found out.
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