He is delusional, but so are you if you genuinely think that Roby wouldn't get into your starting team.

You have quoted what I said, "and he often makes Saints one dimensional". It's fairly straigthfoward.

To be fair to Simmons, this was something I think he was attempting to change. The scoots from dummy half had been reduced and the half backs were being involved a bit more.



Rush and KC have appeared to me to have gone back to the style of play that was successful under Millward and Anderson (they've said such things themselves), unfortunately for them the game has moved on since then. Whilst these tactics generally work against less able sides, against well organised defences like Wigan's they will almost always fail.

It is such a massive jump from junior development into Super League coaching, if it was so easy we would not need one Aussie coach in Super League, it is the same with ex players, all feel they can do the job and want to stay in the game but the very successful ones are few and far between! I feel both Rush & Cunningham are completely out of their depth and perhaps it was wrong to ask especially so early in the year, it is going to seem a long season.

You've been badly coached by Simmons I believe that. But it's now what 8 weeks since Rush and the balloning in size KC tuck over, have you seen anything change? It's all two obvious to us rugby supporting non experts that Saints aren't right. However one would think that coaching supremo's Rush and KC would have begun to undo the work of Royce and implement a game plan that can make the most of what Saints have. I'll presume you see Saints play pretty much every week, has there been a change? I wouldn't include the Leeds and Wire games in that answer if were I you, as those performances were on the back of new coach syndrome IMO.

I wouldn't have bothered typing my post had I seen yours.

Oh I also quoted where you said: '[iRoby's all round game is very limited[/i', so in response to my question (which you have strangley avoided answering for one reason or another....

) I'll take that as a yes that's EXACTLY how you put it.



Fairly StraigHTforward.

There isn't a change no; I don't see how that question relates to what I said though?

You mentioned about being badly coached is all, and I wondered whether you were referring back to Saints time under Simmons or the present coaching staff.



Mainly I asked you because your posts have been fair and balanced unlike a lot of your fellow comrades.

If you have quoted in your sig you know exactly how I put it, its there in black and white. I do think his all round game is limited, take away the quick scoot and I dont think he offers a great deal, certainly no more than someone like McIlorum who has other qualities to his game which are vital in close games. That is not to say he is poor, far from it as Roby is undoutebly a great player when his team is on top and he is getting quick play the balls. However as as we have seen time and time again, twice against Wigan this season alone, in other SL games and for England when this isnt the case and I dont think he offers a great deal else and is worse in these areas than someone like McIlorum.



If you are getting quick play the balls and want a scooter hooker then Roby is your man. Wigan play the way they do because McIlorum passes the ball quickly from dummy half when needed and doesnt always jeopodise the set and its organisation by scooting. As I said previously horses for courses and McIlorum does exactly what is needed in this Wigan team. It would actually be interesting to see Roby play in this Wigan team to see if he could adapt his style and do less individually for the good of the team as a whole. I also dont believe that any coach would instruct Roby to continually scoot the way he does or play with such little structure and direction from dummy half.

I think the problems under Potter and Simmons are common knowledge, but I can't see how the current coaching staff will be able to do what is necessary to change what's happening: they simply aren't experienced enough.



I suppose it's a little unfair to say that we expected anything much different in truth, I suppose the wins v Leeds and Wire masked the true problems, but they are doing their best in a situation that is far from ideal.



Rush, as alluded to above, has gone back to what he knows from his time under Daniel Anderson and that isn't what is effective in SL now and Billinge_Lump is spot on with what he says above.

See what happens when you add substance to what you post?



There is a lot more to Roby's game than the scoot. Not to be rude or anything, but you (I assume you aren't a ST holder at Saints!) would only see highlights of our games where he would seem to be continuously attacking the ruck and how he benefits from that, so in a way I don't blame you in as such to believe that he is the player you describe above.



The stats show that he gets out of dummy half more than the average hooker (as we are coached in a centralised way), but that is not where his abilities end. He brings a lot of direction to the team because he has got a good rugby brain which means that he can read Ds well; he also has a decent kicking game which is not utilised enough IMO.

I agree.

The simple problem is defence. Our attack may be flat at times and the distribution is weak (seeing as getting it wide now appears to mean having Lomax running with it to take it there). However, yesterday Wigoon won pretty much every collision which was more than enough to win the game without moving out of second gear. I wouldn't even say their defence was that great (because we created enough half chances to win), it was just easily better than our's.



Whenever we were tackling it was to stop the momentum after the collision. When Wigoon were tackling they were aiming to win the collision and then drive us back. Our defence focused on containment and their's was like a budget version of our all-conquering Super League XI side, driving us back even in the last ten minutes. I can barely recall us doing similar to any of their fowards and yet every tackle in the trenches should be a contest like that. Yesterday it wasn't and the scoreline reflected that. Talk all you want about our inability to score near the line but it doesn't matter if we can't establish an influential defensive platform from which to launch those attacks. Wigoon gifted us the ball when they weren't playing well but were able to defend. Their first attack? A stroll in as our outside backs faced a blitzkreig of attackers.

Those same outside backs read the subsequent 'blitzkreigs' very well though, on our right at least. Makinson and Shenton did some excellent work in defence. Just a shame they hardly ever saw the ball in attack.

I'm talking talent and ability NOT current form, numb-nuts [ias I said previously[/i... Wigan are on a high, confident, focused, well managed, well-structured and flying. Saints are fractured, riddled with internal shenanigans and distractions and are labouring under a temporary and cobbled-together coaching setup. [iOf course the majority of Wigan's players are outperforming the majority of Saints players right now[/i - that is not the ****ing point! Your argument is a bit like clamping a Formula 1 car and then claiming that a Mondeo is quicker than it....



Get some order and structure (that word again) back in the Saints ranks together with some competitive tactics and a couple of signings and we'd be a better team than you are - fact.



Jeez, but the level of denseness is strong in this one....

surely talent/ability isnt coached though? especially not coached out of an individual after 2 months.

Lee Smith, before and after his 6 week RU adventure

You are the one that is looking dense, and even denser with every post you make. I have noticed that even your own fans laugh at how stupid your posts are. You can use whatever measure you like form, talent, ability its up to you but the result is the same. Many of your players are distinctly average and wouldnt get in the Wigan team, or the likes of Warrington and Leeds for that matter.



You are in complete denial about how average your players are. Your younger players arent even that good and the ones that have potential are far from the finished article. Your older players are average and/or are past their best and are very poor compared to the senior players in past St Helens teams. Saints at the moment are reminiscent of various teams that have declined in the past, like Wigan and Bradford a few years ago, that it is uncanny. Great players have left in successive seasons and in nearly every case have been replaced by very average ones and this coupled with the fact that many of your youngsters arent good enough, and are no where near as good as you think they are, have seen have led to the very average side you have today. If you think the only difference between Wigan and Saints is structure and tactics then you really havent got a clue.

Whatever...



I was similarly mocked at this stage last season by all those wonderful blow-in-the-wind kneejerker Saints fans you respect so for suggesting we still had a top squad (better than yours) and had at least as good a chance of silverware last season as anyone else did, when that lot were all deriding our chances of making the top 8 or ever winning a game again. We turned you over twice in the playoffs even with a load of key players missing as I recall, and were only robbed of a GF win by cruelly-timed injuries at the end of the day, despite the fact that our coach at the time stands now revealed as a bit of a numpty.



Just imagine what those players could have done with a top coach directing them instead.... More of less the same players we have now in fact. Bring in Manu and Turner for Meli and Flannery as seems likely, swap Hohaia for a #7 (possible if the rumours are to be believed), find a decent prop or 2, and stick in a coach that will make the best of them all (and I still have my doubts over Brown) and the results could be frightening next season.



You are playing to the absolute supreme maximum of your capabilities right now whereas Saints are at 40% at best, and yet we still would likely have beaten you at LP with a competent referee, and had much the better of territory and possession against you on Saturday.



I was right last season and I am right now. You will live and learn that I and am rarely wrong. You may not know it yet, but you will....



And if you think the half-baked opinions of a bunch of knowledgeless knuckle-scraping mouth-breathers worries me even slightly then you need some serious reflection...

That picture says it better than words ever could. He really hasnt got a clue

So you're 2 props, a second rower, a winger, a half and a coach away from Wigan? Sounds like it's just our structures that are better.

Talent/ability is nothing without direction which is what a strong coaching set up brings. How do you learn/improve if nobody is feeding back to you on your performance?

hahahaha this is getting to funny to even be true, and no other saints fan is trying to help you as they also know your very deluded. just to remind you wigan have won over the last 2 seasons, league leaders trophy, grand final and also a challenge cup (something you just lost by alot better team!) what did saints players get? another runners up medal. last season you came up against a run down wigan team as it seemed maguire had hes eyes on the nrl and was to stuborn to give players a rest.



just to support my argument even more your so called better young players lost ROGUES knows how many times to our academy im guessing they was also just better coached :S?



you failed to come up with any half decent argument to as why you think saints players are naturally better other than some heavily biased comparisions.