He really is that stupid.

I don't know why Rogues is taking so much stick for pointing out a couple of 'facts'. In the GF of 2010 McIlorum was superb and got the better of his opposite number, the great Keiron Cunningham. It was the night the lad came of age and he hasn't looked back.

His second point that McIlorum has got the better of Roby more often then not in the last 3 years is also true. It's not all down to McIlorum obviously, he's been playing in a better side but its still true.

Like I said earlier in the thread MM is a huge part of this Wigan side and is a major reason why your forwards legs have gone to jelly at the prospect of facing Wigan these past couple of seasons. If he's out tonight along with Tomkins and O'Loughlin Saints will win the game IMO.

Nobody is doubting that mm is decent player (I like his rough style) but how can a hooker take another hooker out the game ? It's not like he can shadow someone who plays behind the play the ball is it?

If you mean he played better than him on the night, then I'd agree but that's not really taking KC out the game or getting the better of him is it? It means that mm just played better on the day.

If your hinting that MM is better than both KC and Roby, then your totally deluded. He's not in the same league as KC and Roby and its embarrassing to even mention him in the same breath as them.

I agree one hooker can't take another out of a game (legally anyway) and yes I do just mean in terms of him outplaying him in a one off situation. He's also outplayed Roby more often then not but that is due to the attention Wigan, as a team, pay Roby because they know how good he is.

He's far better then decent though McIlorum. He's not as good as KC (who is/was for a long time) and if swap him for Roby but that's not a slight on the guy. I think his style of play marks him out as a very important player for Wigan and I'd imagine he's horrible to play against. It's another debate this one and I don't expect it would get much backing round these parts but I'd actually start MM for England with Roby on the bench. Is that because I think he's better? No but I Di think he's better suited to the role of starting hooker in test match rugby. I'd only give him 25-30 mins a game to rough teams up before setting a fresh Roby loose but I'd certainly start him.

I'd never pick him ahead of KC or Roby, but McIlorum is a good example of what our side currently lacks. We could do with someone in our pack who has that level of aggression and intensity.

To be honest I don’t think he was I think it was more that you did get a fair mauling about some things you came out with, and IMO it was fair. I think KC was a super player, but an even better figure-head and leader. MM is also a super player with a lot more to prove, but for me is not a born leader, or icon. JR is just a fantastic player, no doubt of it and I can’t think of a single flaw in his normal game, he is truly world class, and if any one thing could swing it against Saints tonight, it’s his absence.

Surely Lance is on his way out ?

it will be the first time this season the pack have raised their game in the first 20. In most of our recent games we have gone behind early on, Cas did but couldnt pull away from us.

Hull KR, Leeds, Warrington, Huddersfield all have gone 16+ points ahead of us in the first 20mins in recent weeks, and it will be the same tonight.

If we capitulate against this Wigan side, Brown has to go. Wigan aren't good enough without Tomkins to be anything more than solid. If we can't cope with that I'll be very disappointed.

Seeing Wigan grind out a win by 6-12 points I could live with, they are good defensively and well organised in attack and will no doubt be more committed than we are. But there is no way they should be able to put any sort of score on us.

we have no go forward or aggression in the team that has been suggested will play. Laffranchi and Puletua are powder-puff and wont make any decent yards, Manu cant be relied on to keep hold of the ball.

I cant see anything other than a 20 point defeat, with Wigan taking the pressure off in the last 20 and we will score a couple of late tries.

I actually think well win tonight. I haven't had an accident or banged my head either.

I have to agree. I'd be very disappointed if we even lose

When you look at our pack, it no longer makes you think a pack with aggression and strength.

Too many players for me filling the 4th/5th prop. The good ones are the impact props

11. Tony Puletua [i(can show glimpses but best years behind)[/i
36. Stuart Howarth [i(very slow distribution, not a starter for mine)[/i
14. Anthony Laffranchi [i(long discussed, but a 2nd rower really or a 4th /5th prop)[/i
19. Josh Jones [i(the fact he is not in the backs, shows we are short)[/i
13. Willie Manu [i(very good, but can spill early ball in a game and it's over before it starts)[/i
10. LMS [i(Better at loose, but can be a penalty machine, another 4th prop)[/i


16. Paul Clough [i(good enough for a 4th or 5th prop)[/i
24. Joe Greenwood [i(his debut year, has held his own but another 4th or 5th choice)[/i
25. Alex Walmsley [i(our best prop going forwards)[/i


When I look at that I would seriously only start with Puletua, under normal circumstances. The rest would be from the bench, if that.

I fancy us tonight, probably my foolish optimism, but I'm not dreading it like I usually do with Saints/Wigan games.

All I can say is that it's a shame that this match will be a shadow of what it could've been. Between 2 rounds of the Challenge Cup (really, what were the odds neither team would make it that far?) and with the best 2-3 players absent from each team.