And the frustrating thing is it hasn't got any better as the season has gone on. Wilkin's bombs more often than not go behind him because he connects with the ball past 90 degrees, Hohaia plays aussie rules with the full back and winger and Lomax doesn't drive the ball he floats it. I often wonder if the staff actually spend and time working on this with the players because it's the same week in week out. Kicking is vital in rugby and it's a skill that is so obviously lacking in this saints side.

What did everyone make of our captain tonight? Am I the only one who can see how utterly shocking he is? How the feck is he even in the side let alone captaining it? He has the worst, most defeatist and negative body language of any supposed leader ever. His performances are a joke and yet he's in the press telling us how delighted he is with his form and his contract discussions. Utterly terrible tonight again, adds absolutely nothing to the side, we may as well play with 12. Compare and contrast his contribution as Captain to Jammer's.

What Saints need, as well as half a squad, is a leader. I'd say it's the most important of the requirements at the moment, we are so lacking in spirit and commitment.

Yeah, I'd say so. Wigan and Warrington have an extra gear they can move into that we simply can't live with. The squad players and the young players we have do not have any star potential, so it's not like we've got a queue forming to take the shirts off players that leave and we've not replaced Wellens, Lyon, Albert, Sculthorpe, Long or Cunningham yet. With every season we see another dip in quality. We're just lucky in a way that the whole competition is being forced into decline by the economy and the rise of the NRL. This is easily the weakest Saints squad we've had in 20 years and it's not got the mentality, the never say die attitude anymore and we've not got enough quality.

Troll

.....but we are third.

Kinda agree with Sadenned here. We're doing OK, but we are miles off Wigan and Warrington, as it stands at this current moment.

This time last year we were also miles off them.

How did their play off runs go?

No worse than our's ultimately. And don't even suggest us reaching another Grand Final, just don't mention it. I couldn't take it.

Hardly miles off when we make the big 'un and they don't.

Best prepare yourself for the worst... I can see the annual trip to the Wet City.

Me too... Probably against Wigan... God help us... Give me 2 80-0 defeats against Wire in the playoffs beforehand any day.

We had something last year that we don't this year: an effective halfback partnership. It's a sad state of affairs when Wilkin is our main kicking threat.

I agree, but a lot of people are too blinded by the past that they either won't or can't admit it. Wellens has been a great player for us but sadly doesn't contribute enough anymore to warrant being in a top 4 side. He made 2 good contributions tonight, catching a bomb and putting Shenton through for his try. Other than that he was constantly late getting to attacks, threw the ball on the floor a couple of times and killed possession.

Our play off run blew up in the last game of the season against Leeds. But we were and are a comfortably team than Saints last year or this.

We can't stretch a defence out wide like Wigan and Wire do and its mainly because Wellens movement across the back and into the line is so easy to monitor. Hohaia proved his pace last night tracking down Myler and we know he can be dangerous with the ball in hand.

We've based our revival on a % game, but surely that lends itself to picking a standoff with a kicking game, rather than a player based on the odd bit of flair. Lance can be dangerous, but I'm afraid our ball movement, when compare to the W's is poor. Gaskell should be #6 - The team would be much better off for it.

As most of us mentioned, we were worried about Wire's ability to up the intensity. We've had a poor line speed since Royce took over and that hasn't really improved. Wire came on to the ball at pace and our failure to meet them properly meant they were getting easy yards, landing on the front foot and getting offloads away without a problem.

Our players didn't disgrace themselves. I thought we had good games from Perry, Clough, LMS, I thought Dixon played well when he came on. I thought Shenton was good with ball in hand, despite getting a few hospital passes (although I haven't rewatched the Waterhouse try, which could have been a black mark to him), but as a whole, much like the Wigan games, Wire played 10% quicker/keener/more agressive across the park which left us with little chances. If we can flick that switch and gear things up (like Leeds do when its needed), then we will be be a true threat to the clubs above us, but untill then........

Final remark - Ben Westwood. What an animal. he way he trucked the ball up was immense