The saints 17 that in the last month has twice beaten Wigan and come pretty close to winning the GF will pretty much be here at the start of next season, minus Graham who admittedly is a huge loss and possibly Moore, who is less of a loss. We can discount pryce and eastmond because their contribution this season has benn minimal, and fringe players like ashurst and Armstrong will be replaced by new kids. So adding to what is already a competitive team we will have perry, laffranchi, Flanagan, hohaia, magennis, flannery, gardner and hopefully a fit wheeler. They are all first team super league standard players who will give us a strong squad before we add new kids like ashe who are likely to be the next off our production line. Some people live in cloud cuckoo land if they think we have a crap squad or that we are going to go out and splash the cash on big money players. Saints have a formula that has made us successful for years now, this isn't the time to turn into hull or Bradford and throw all that away

I'm not off my nut bewareofshadows - just put a few things out there to stir up a debate -job done

I know you can't do people on pay as you play - just frustrated at the amount of Aussies who suffer 1st season syndrome. I fear we will get the same with Hohia. I just would be really careful of fuutre contract offers and give the club some more get out room if things don't work out. Graham's loss could be covered - IF Perry/Laffranchi do the games we need them to.

Re FLanno/Meli-Gardener -this is probably where I mean ruthless. You need to get rid of people just before they go over the other side. We got it just about right with Long, where may be a year early with Gilly but with Meli/Gardener/Flanno w ehave got it wrong. There must be talent out there - Carmont/Hoffman/Youngquest/O'Donnell would have all been better bets. A better winger than Gardener - Fox, Halley, Youngquest?

This is where we must be ruthless. We have been that way with Armstrong correctly. Need to do it with older players. No room for sentiment.

We have no quota space available! Releasing meli or flannery wouldn't create quota space. Stop coming up with solutions that are non starters

The most obvious example of Saints lack of ruthlessness is the tragic farce that is now the fullback position. We have known about Wellens' limitations for six or seven years and for the past five teams have been increasingly exploiting them for fun. For the last two seasons he's been a millstone around our neck. The game has changed so much since he first took the jersey. Back then you'd be looking at your centres and halves to be the focal point of the attack. Now the game is very much geared to quick fullbacks with good ball skills who can inject themselves into defensive weak spots.

No team hell-bent on winning would allow someone an unchallenged role for ten years. Which is effectively what Paul Wellens has been allowed. I find it staggering that not only have we never brought in a second option - we've shown almost no interest in grooming one from the academy.

I suppose another good example would be the reckless disregard we have shown toward the kicking discipline over the years. Granted, we now have Foster who seems an excellent field goal kicker. But before him I recall us entering a season with PAUL WELLENS as back-up to a shot Long. Long himself was not up to standard. His short game was useful but his leg strength meant he could barely punt the ball thirty meters. This resulted in us going through seasons where we were beginning each set ten yards further back than we should expect. I mean, this kind of stuff is inexcusable. Yet fans continue to do so. Baffling.

I am absolutely suggesting that as an incontrovertible 100% fact, yes. They wouldn't have been resigned otherwise. And we couldn't have signed any foreigners to replace any of them due to quota restrictions... If you can name realistic replacements we could have afforded on the quota/cap then you have a legitimate argument - otherwise frustratedly spouting abuse at players who are as good in their position as most other players in the league and who would easily make most other 17s in the league just doesn't cut it. I'd love to find a Newlove, Sullivan and Joynt to replace the 3 of them as they are all pale shadows of the quality of player we had in Saints' shirts 10/15 years ago, but the sad fact is that the average standard of SL player is in terminal decline and all 3 are now as good (in fact significantly better) than anyone else available. Deal with and move on matey.

This is it. We have no idea what money each player is pulling down. So saying Flannery is not worth it. How do we know. He is now a back up second rower. He will not even be a first choice sub next year. I dont know many clubs who can boast a forward of Flannerys quality outside the top 17.Meli is a gamble I would say until the last 20 minutes of thisyear he was a gamble that was paying off.

If anything Leeds reckonised his weakness on the wing royce did not. With hindsight foster should have been left with foster and Wheeler should have moved over to the other centre and drop lomax to fb.

But back on point

Next years line up for me.

Lomax
Makinson
Shenton
Wheeler
Foster

Lance
Gaskell

Perry
Roby
TP
Sia
Wilkin
Laffranchi

Clough
LMS
Megenis
Flanaghan

Wellens
Dixon
Flannery
Meli

If we need a back on the bench Wellens would be it for mine. Can cover all positions and do a stint in the back row.

No problem having a club captain. As and on pitch captain I think Wilkin or maybe an assuie like Lafranchi or Lance. Some one who will not hold their fire and be able to control a side. Some one who can close out a big game and make decisions without looking to the stand.

We will have strength in depth and 5props with Lafranchi offering a sixth and Sia a seventh. WithDixon and flannery and Flanaghan offering a good back rowers role.

Perhaps the fact that you've been the nearly men of SL for a while know has cost you the club being ruthless. The fact that your still challenging highly on all fronts is the reason why these tough decisions haven't been made.

Had Saints gone through a real lean patch, where you didn't challenge for honors, or maybe even struggled to make the top. The tough decisions would have been made IMO. But it's because your in between those two scenario's. Your challenging for titles but not winning them, yet your not struggling what so ever to make the top 4. Tough decisions tend to be made in tough times, something Saints aren't really going through. Maybe you need to hit more rock bottom before theses tough decisions are forced upon those in charge.

It's an incontrovertible argument from final consequences (a logical fallacy). But little else.



I've played this game before and it's wearisome. I name a player - say Ratchford - and you just claim he isn't a realistic proposal (despite the fact that you have no idea whether Saints can afford him or not).



With all the straw men knocking about in this thread we'd best be careful someone doesn't drop a match. If labeling Francis Meli a defensive liability who has been directly responsible for THREE grand final defeats is "abusive" then we might as well give up critical debate. Moreover, at no point have I suggested we need the services of a Newlove, Joynt or other player of such caliber. It's easy to debate when you respond to words you've put into someone else's mouth. It's much harder when ventriloquism isn't allowed.

What strawmen would they be? I wasn't suggesting you were insisting on finding players of that quality as a priority in the slightest - you are however insisting on us finding players better than what we currently have - players that just simply do not exist. The strawmen it seems are gaily dancing around in your cornfield and not mine....

People who know a thousand times more than everyone else on this thread put together about the state of the league, our salary cap situation, player availability and the strengths/weaknesses of what we have available have decided that the players we have resigned are the best options available right now. Why do you think that you know any better than them, particularly given that, a half-back who is off to the bottomless salary cap at the Flatpack aside, you can seemingly name no other realistic targets? I am no fan of Gardner or Flannery by any manner of means believe you me, and I've wanted to brutally murder Meli on as many different occasions in the past as anyone else has, but the fact remains that there sadly just isn't anyone else better available right now.

Totally agree with Northampton saint.

Yep it looks that way

Don't exist? Have you arrived at this conclusion via some hitherto undiscovered mathematical proof - or an act of divination? Perhaps I should have used the word wicker rather than straw?

As stated, your argument is a logical fallacy. The fact that Saints have chosen to re-sign Meli is NOT proof he is the best player around. At the very least it denies the possibility of making a mistake.



That's a bull copout and you know it. Let's look at reality here. None of us know how much Saints have to spend on players. That said, McManus has repeatedly stated that we are spending up to the cap. Now, we can debate this until the cows come home [ibut the fact that McManus has said it is incontrovertible[/i. If we accept this at face value then no player (outside of the NRL's top stars) is off limits. After all, other clubs cannot spend more than us.



You keep talking about facts and 100% certainties without supplying any at all. And the suggestion that there hasn't been a single player in the past five years who is capable of performing well in a Saints shirt (over Meli and Gardner) is laughable. We could have gone for Ratchford. We could have gone for Westerman. Hell, at a push I might even have gone for Chris Bridge or Ryan Atkins.

Why would we be in for Ratchford when he would probably be a step down from what we already have?

You are correct - the fact that Saints may or may not have done anything is indeed proof of nothing. However, the fact that a cursory look up and down the Superleague, to any reasonable eye, finds absolutely no players available when the resignings were made any better however proves that Saints did do the correct thing.

Playing standards in SL are at an all-time low and there just aren't enough decent players to go around all the clubs that want them, particularly in the "skill" positions (to use an NFL phrase), so we all just have to make do and mend with the best players we can get hold of at any particular time. How many clubs now are having to play warmed-over 2nd rowers at centre as they can't find anyone better, just as we can't? It sucks but is a fact of life.