FORUMS FORUMS






RLFANS.COM
Celebrating
25 years service to
the Rugby League
Community!
  
FORUMS > St. Helens > Wigan or Warrington?
65 posts in 5 pages 
<<   PREV  NEXT   >>
Subscribe | Moderators: Admin, Billinge_Lump , Saint Simon , BackrowSaint
RankPostsTeam
International Star3368No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Jul 201113 years
OnlineLast PostLast Page
Jan 2015Jan 2015LINK
Milestone Posts
0
100
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Signature
60495_1398780661.jpg
:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_60495.jpg



hahahahah thump you are 1 miserable person. Matty smith has won more in 1 season at wigan than saints as a club have for 5 years haha.

RankPostsTeam
International Star993
JoinedServiceReputation
Sep 201113 years
OnlineLast PostLast Page
Apr 2024Sep 2017LINK
Milestone Posts
0
100
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Signature
63644_1343901350.jpg
[color=#FF0000:3s5hr9kj]Have you noticed, you can never find a radical priest when you need one.[/color:3s5hr9kj]:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_63644.jpg



Quote: Th'ump "Finally, just want to add that no matter how much I really don't like Wire, seeing the mouth-breathers from wi*an looking happy (like lobotomised retards would) in the stands makes me remember just how much I despise everything about that ****y town.'"

After wasting my time reading your silly vile posts, I think anyone can see there’s only one of what you said in brackets here, and that’s you hombre! Go away.
eusa_shhh.gif eusa_naughty.gif eusa_silenced.gif eusa_snooty.gif

RankPostsTeam
International Star274
JoinedServiceReputation
Feb 201114 years
OnlineLast PostLast Page
Oct 2016Oct 2016LINK
Milestone Posts
0
100
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Signature
56553_1315654062.jpg
:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_56553.jpg



Quote: Th'ump "Finally, just want to add that no matter how much I really don't like Wire, seeing the mouth-breathers from wi*an looking happy (like lobotomised retards would) in the stands makes me remember just how much I despise everything about that ****y town.'"



Grow up.

RankPostsTeam
Player Coach7648
JoinedServiceReputation
Sep 200519 years
OnlineLast PostLast Page
Nov 2024Nov 2024LINK
Milestone Posts
0
100
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Signature
17555_1637667680.png
Wigan RLFC:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_17555.png



Quote: Th'ump " Despite Ratchford being taken out by a typical wi*an 'cannonball' tackle, Wire should have kept control. '"



It was a legal challenge, unlike Westwood on Green or Cooper on Richards.

RankPostsTeam
Club Owner29214No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Jul 200321 years
OnlineLast PostLast Page
Nov 2024Nov 2024LINK
Milestone Posts
0
100
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Signature
6310_1310045241.jpg
:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_6310.jpg



Quote: CM Punk "It was a legal challenge, unlike Westwood on Green or Cooper on Richards.'"


Are you okay with Wigan doing that though? On a moral level?

RankPostsTeam
Club Coach16269
JoinedServiceReputation
Oct 200420 years
OnlineLast PostLast Page
Nov 2024Nov 2024LINK
Milestone Posts
0
100
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Signature
10289_1326111229.png
Challenge Cup winners 2009 2010 2012 2019 League Leaders 2011 2016:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_10289.png



Quote: Noel Cleal "I have to agree that Wigan winning would be a disaster. They would surely be the worst team to ever win the double and maybe the third worst (behind Leeds in 2011 and Bradford in 2005) to win the league. We will also have a lot of Wigan posters on here saying "ha ha you lot said we were cr*p" and they are just not going to buy the answer "you are cr*p, you were just really, really lucky" even though not a truer word has ever been side.

But Warrington winning would also have major issues. Number 1; it would completely cock up our songs and there would be a risk that they will actually start using some of them against us. Number 2; It will be like Chelsea winning the champions league. Wire fans will start coming out the woodwork like a George A fecking Romaro film. There will Blue, Yellow and Jizz shirts everywhere and they will act like they have been out and proud for the last 80 years rather than hiding under a rock. It will be Bradford in 1996 all over again.

It truly is a lose/lose situation we must try and make the best out of it by taking the mickey out of the loser as much as possible.'"


icon_lol.gif I like this post

I guess you can take the mickey out of us then.

Enjoy your chance to take the mick because 2014 is gonna be Warrington's year.

RankPostsTeam
International Star4239No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Mar 201312 years
OnlineLast PostLast Page
Jul 2024Jun 2024LINK
Milestone Posts
0
100
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Signature

实事求是!:



Quote: rammsteinbloke "The 2011 Grand Final was ours for the taking until Michel Shenton came off injured, and the momentum swung to Leeds.

The 2013 Grand Final was Warringtons for the taking until Joel Monaghan came off injured, and the momentum swung to Wigan.'"


In 2010 pat richards went off injured at half time, wigan had a smaller lead (16-6) than warrington did (16-2) and managed to close the game out.

I don't like seeing wigan win anymore than you guys, but they are worthy winners. They may not have as many 'name' players at the moment, but as a unit they are exceptional and the way they move the ball wide and isolate opposition wingers and centres is not too dissimiliar to how australia play, they are very slick and well drilled and were tremendously clinical once 16-2 down.

I agree with noel that theres no positive to this, but when you win a double theres only one way you can eventually go.

RankPostsTeam
International Star3368No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Jul 201113 years
OnlineLast PostLast Page
Jan 2015Jan 2015LINK
Milestone Posts
0
100
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Signature
60495_1398780661.jpg
:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_60495.jpg



Quote: FlexWheeler "In 2010 pat richards went off injured at half time, wigan had a smaller lead (16-6) than warrington did (16-2) and managed to close the game out.

I don't like seeing wigan win anymore than you guys, but they are worthy winners. They may not have as many 'name' players at the moment, but as a unit they are exceptional and the way they move the ball wide and isolate opposition wingers and centres is not too dissimiliar to how australia play, they are very slick and well drilled and were tremendously clinical once 16-2 down.

I agree with noel that theres no positive to this, but when you win a double theres only one way you can eventually go.'"


Yeah win the League leaders and World club challenge

RankPostsTeam
Player Coach1923No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Apr 200916 years
OnlineLast PostLast Page
Feb 2019Jan 2019LINK
Milestone Posts
0
100
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Signature
44920_1327005775.png
[quote="Harrigan":1th0f7ap]Wigan are the most structured team I have ever seen in this country.[/quote:1th0f7ap] [quote="NickyKiss":1th0f7ap]As a fan Wane makes you want to run through a brick wall so you can only imagine how he makes the players feel![/quote:1th0f7ap] [url=http://twitter.com/#!/theegw:1th0f7ap]@TheEGW[/url:1th0f7ap] [url=https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsnX1esHN2wkEC1FxcO2TCg:1th0f7ap]YouTube Channel[/url:1th0f7ap]:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_44920.png



Quote: sally cinnamon "I don't really go along with this "Saints fans were arrogant in their glory days" thing.

Yes they were cocky when they were winning everything but Saints fans don't seem to take themselves too seriously, whereas the pie eaters take themselves very seriously. Most Saints fans can have a laugh about being below Wire now (who would have thought it) because they know they've won it all and also, a bit like the Aussies in cricket, they know that the teams that are beating them now, would not have been winning things if Cunningham, Scully and the greats of old were still around. Nobody has yet come around that was better than Saints [iwere[/i, so probably some of the Saints remaining chippiness is based on that knowledge.

The Wigan fans take themselves very seriously and don't seem to have the same sense of humour which is why its funnier to beat them than it is to beat Saints. I suppose its further away in the past that Wigan were a great team and for the majority of the summer era they have been in Saints shadow which also makes them paranoid and bitter. Much as it used to get on my nerves when Saints took the mick out of us during their long winning streak, I always had a chuckle when the Saints got cocky with the pie eaters in their derbies.'"

Give over! So saints fans are cocky because they know they've won it all, so Wigan fans are cocky because, guess what? So have we. And Saints fans are secure in the knowledge that if their legends we're still around they'd still be world beaters, just like the Aussies at cricket, or Wigan and their legends! And if being in Saints shadow for most of the summer era equates to us being bitter then what does it make Wire fans because you're sounding quite bitter yourself.

RankPostsTeam
Player Coach6767No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Oct 200717 years
OnlineLast PostLast Page
Jul 2024Apr 2024LINK
Milestone Posts
0
100
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Signature
Dwarfs, Gnomes, Halflings/GNOME2.JPG
The new young dynasty of super saints is coming to a ground near you. Welsby-Dodd-Simms-Eaves-Rizzelli, not Eastmond...the future is coming.:Dwarfs, Gnomes, Halflings/GNOME2.JPG



Quote: dubairl "hahahahah thump you are 1 miserable person. Matty smith has won more in 1 season at wigan than saints as a club have for 5 years haha.'"


Some fans can only see out of "one eye"...................SEAN LONG

RankPostsTeam
International Star18No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
May 201113 years
OnlineLast PostLast Page
Mar 2014Feb 2014LINK
Milestone Posts
0
100
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Signature

:



Quote: Th'ump "Finally, just want to add that no matter how much I really don't like Wire, seeing the mouth-breathers from wi*an looking happy (like lobotomised retards would) in the stands makes me remember just how much I despise everything about that ****y town.'"


Your a nice chap.

RankPostsTeam
Player Coach13012No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Jun 200519 years
OnlineLast PostLast Page
Jan 2021Apr 2020LINK
Milestone Posts
0
100
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Signature
15768_1384187582.jpg
:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_15768.jpg



Quote: Th'ump "Finally, just want to add that no matter how much I really don't like Wire, seeing the mouth-breathers from wi*an looking happy (like lobotomised retards would) in the stands makes me remember just how much I despise everything about that ****y town.'"

What a nice man you are icon_wink.gif .Charlie knows .

RankPostsTeam
Club Coach743
JoinedServiceReputation
Mar 200520 years
OnlineLast PostLast Page
Oct 2022May 2018LINK
Milestone Posts
0
100
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Signature
14031_1446383211.jpg
:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_14031.jpg



Quote: TheElectricGlidingWarrior "Give over! So saints fans are cocky because they know they've won it all, so Wigan fans are cocky because, guess what? So have we. And Saints fans are secure in the knowledge that if their legends we're still around they'd still be world beaters, just like the Aussies at cricket, or Wigan and their legends! And if being in Saints shadow for most of the summer era equates to us being bitter then what does it make Wire fans because you're sounding quite bitter yourself.'"


Just ignore it. The reality is that sport goes in cycles: Wigan had theirs, Saints had theirs, Leeds had theirs now it's Wigan again. Next season may be different all over - that's what makes sport as compelling as it is and is why I watch it. There's too much myopic bias from all sets of supporters. Win with dignity, lose with more is my mantra.

Wigan won it fair and square last night and over the course of the season have deserved it. Congratulations and enjoy it - am looking forward to next season already.

RankPostsTeam
International Star1624
JoinedServiceReputation
Jul 201113 years
OnlineLast PostLast Page
Jan 2023Dec 2022LINK
Milestone Posts
0
100
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Signature
60904_1539894659.jpg
:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_60904.jpg



Quote: Judder Man "Some fans can only see out of "one eye"...................SEAN LONG'"


And players.................Blake Green.

RankPostsTeam
International Star1624
JoinedServiceReputation
Jul 201113 years
OnlineLast PostLast Page
Jan 2023Dec 2022LINK
Milestone Posts
0
100
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Signature
60904_1539894659.jpg
:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_60904.jpg



Quote: Allez "Just ignore it. The reality is that sport goes in cycles

Well said. I am looking forward to our battles in 2014, it is going to be a long Winter!

65 posts in 5 pages 
<<   PREV  NEXT   >>
Subscribe | Moderators: Admin, Billinge_Lump , Saint Simon , BackrowSaint
65 posts in 5 pages 
<<   PREV  NEXT   >>
Subscribe | Moderators: Admin, Billinge_Lump , Saint Simon , BackrowSaint



All views expressed are those of the author and not necessarily those of the RLFANS.COM or its subsites.

Whilst every effort is made to ensure that news stories, articles and images are correct, we cannot be held responsible for errors. However, if you feel any material on this website is copyrighted or incorrect in any way please contact us using the link at the top of the page so we can remove it or negotiate copyright permission.

RLFANS.COM, the owners of this website, is not responsible for the content of its sub-sites or posts, please email the author of this sub-site or post if you feel you find an article offensive or of a choice nature that you disagree with.

Copyright 1999 - 2024 RLFANS.COM

You must be 18+ to gamble, for more information and for help with gambling issues see https://www.begambleaware.org/.



Please Support RLFANS.COM


3.7705078125:5
RLFANS Recent Posts
FORUM
LAST
POST
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
12m
Film game
Boss Hog
5636
19m
Shopping list for 2025
Marcus's Bic
5575
28m
DoR - New Coach - Investor & Adam - New signings
Chris71
4016
51m
2025 Betfred Super League Fixtures
homerjsimpso
14
Recent
2024
Butcher
5
Recent
ALL NEW 49ERS ERA LEEDS UTD THREAD
tad rhino
2593
Recent
Leeds away first up
Butcher
41
Recent
Dons Squad 2025
Jemmo
13
Recent
2025 Recruitment
Pyrah123
195
Recent
Castleford sack Lingard
FIL
8
FORUM
LAST
VIEW
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
21s
Wigan v Wire in Vegas
karetaker
11
25s
2024
Butcher
5
26s
Assistant Coach - Langley
exiledrhino
30
33s
Pre Season - 2025
mwindass
183
1m
Salford
rubber ducki
12
1m
Leeds away first up
Butcher
41
1m
Dan Norman Retires
Cokey
1
1m
Dual Reg
Spookisback
9
1m
Transfer Talk V5
The Biffs Ba
503
2m
Planning for next season
J7P1
175
FORUM
NEW
TOPICS
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
TODAY
2024
Butcher
5
TODAY
Dan Norman Retires
Cokey
1
TODAY
How many games will we win
Butcher
5
TODAY
Leigh Leopards - 2025 Fixtures
ColD
2
TODAY
Catalan Away
jonh
5
TODAY
2025 Betfred Super League Fixtures
RLFANS News
1
TODAY
2025 fixtures
Smiffy27
15
TODAY
Fixtures
Willzay
13
TODAY
Salford
rubber ducki
12
TODAY
WCC Off
Choc Ice
11
TODAY
Leeds away first up
Butcher
41
TODAY
Jake McLoughlin
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Assistant Coach - Langley
exiledrhino
30
TODAY
Noah Booth out on loan
Butcher
20
TODAY
Luke Gale testimonial match
BarnsleyGull
2
TODAY
England 5 - 0 Ireland
Sadfish
1
TODAY
Magic Weekend 2025 - Back To Newcastle
RLFANS News
1
NEWS ITEMS
VIEWS
2025 Betfred Super League Fixt..
420
Magic Weekend 2025 - Back To N..
528
England Beat Samoa To Take Tes..
1269
England's Women Demolish The W..
1093
England Beat Samoa Comfortably..
1332
Operational Rules Tribunal –..
1128
IMG-RFL club gradings released..
1387
Wakefield Trinity Win Champion..
1927
Hunslet Secure Promotion After..
2145
Trinity Into Play Off Final Af..
2382
Wigan Warriors Crowned Champio..
1957
York Valkyrie Win Back to Back..
2194
Hunslet Book Relegation Play O..
2658
Penrith Panthers Secure Fourth..
2089
Wigan Humiliate Leigh For Gran..
2162
POSTSONLINEREGISTRATIONSRECORD
19.65M 2,327 80,15514,103
LOGIN HERE
or REGISTER for more features!.

When you register you get access to the live match scores, live match chat and you can post in the discussions on the forums.
RLFANS Match Centre
 Thu 13th Feb 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R1
20:00
Wigan
v
Leigh
 Fri 14th Feb 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R1
20:00
Hull KR
v
Castleford
20:00
Catalans
v
Hull FC
 Sat 15th Feb 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R1
15:00
Leeds
v
Wakefield
17:30
St.Helens
v
Salford
 Sun 16th Feb 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R1
15:00
Huddersfield
v
Warrington
 Thu 20th Feb 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R2
20:00
Wakefield
v
Hull KR
 Fri 21st Feb 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R2
20:00
Warrington
v
Catalans
20:00
Hull FC
v
Wigan
 Sat 22nd Feb 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R2
15:00
Salford
v
Leeds
20:00
Castleford
v
St.Helens
 Sun 23rd Feb 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R2
14:30
Leigh
v
Huddersfield
 Thu 6th Mar 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R3
20:00
Hull FC
v
Leigh
 Fri 7th Mar 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R3
20:00
Castleford
v
Salford
20:00
St.Helens
v
Hull KR
 Sat 8th Mar 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R3
17:30
Catalans
v
Leeds
 Sun 9th Mar 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R3
17:30
Warrington
v
Wakefield
17:30
Wigan
v
Huddersfield
 Thu 20th Mar 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R4
20:00
Salford
v
Huddersfield
 Fri 21st Mar 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R4
20:00
St.Helens
v
Warrington
ALL SCORES PROVIDED BY RLFANS.COM (SETTINGS)
Matches on TV
Thu 13th Feb
SL
20:00
Wigan-Leigh
Fri 14th Feb
SL
20:00
Hull KR-Castleford
SL
20:00
Catalans-Hull FC
Sat 15th Feb
SL
15:00
Leeds-Wakefield
SL
17:30
St.Helens-Salford
Sun 16th Feb
SL
15:00
Huddersfield-Warrington
Thu 20th Feb
SL
20:00
Wakefield-Hull KR
Fri 21st Feb
SL
20:00
Warrington-Catalans
SL
20:00
Hull FC-Wigan
Sat 22nd Feb
SL
15:00
Salford-Leeds
SL
20:00
Castleford-St.Helens
Sun 23rd Feb
SL
14:30
Leigh-Huddersfield
Thu 6th Mar
SL
20:00
Hull FC-Leigh
Fri 7th Mar
SL
20:00
Castleford-Salford
SL
20:00
St.Helens-Hull KR
Sat 8th Mar
SL
17:30
Catalans-Leeds
Sun 9th Mar
SL
17:30
Warrington-Wakefield
SL
17:30
Wigan-Huddersfield
Thu 20th Mar
SL
20:00
Salford-Huddersfield
Fri 21st Mar
SL
20:00
St.Helens-Warrington
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Mens Betfred Super League XXVIII ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wigan 29 768 338 430 48
Hull KR 29 731 344 387 44
Warrington 29 769 351 418 42
Leigh 29 580 442 138 33
Salford 28 556 561 -5 32
St.Helens 28 618 411 207 30
 
Catalans 27 475 427 48 30
Leeds 27 530 488 42 28
Huddersfield 27 468 658 -190 20
Castleford 27 425 735 -310 15
Hull FC 27 328 894 -566 6
LondonB 27 317 916 -599 6
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Betfred Championship 2024 ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wakefield 27 1032 275 757 52
Toulouse 26 765 388 377 37
Bradford 28 723 420 303 36
York 29 695 501 194 32
Widnes 27 561 502 59 29
Featherstone 27 634 525 109 28
 
Sheffield 26 626 526 100 28
Doncaster 26 498 619 -121 25
Halifax 26 509 650 -141 22
Batley 26 422 591 -169 22
Swinton 28 484 676 -192 20
Barrow 25 442 720 -278 19
Whitehaven 25 437 826 -389 18
Dewsbury 27 348 879 -531 4
Hunslet 1 6 10 -4 0
RLFANS Recent Posts
FORUM
LAST
POST
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
12m
Film game
Boss Hog
5636
19m
Shopping list for 2025
Marcus's Bic
5575
28m
DoR - New Coach - Investor & Adam - New signings
Chris71
4016
51m
2025 Betfred Super League Fixtures
homerjsimpso
14
Recent
2024
Butcher
5
Recent
ALL NEW 49ERS ERA LEEDS UTD THREAD
tad rhino
2593
Recent
Leeds away first up
Butcher
41
Recent
Dons Squad 2025
Jemmo
13
Recent
2025 Recruitment
Pyrah123
195
Recent
Castleford sack Lingard
FIL
8
FORUM
LAST
VIEW
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
21s
Wigan v Wire in Vegas
karetaker
11
25s
2024
Butcher
5
26s
Assistant Coach - Langley
exiledrhino
30
33s
Pre Season - 2025
mwindass
183
1m
Salford
rubber ducki
12
1m
Leeds away first up
Butcher
41
1m
Dan Norman Retires
Cokey
1
1m
Dual Reg
Spookisback
9
1m
Transfer Talk V5
The Biffs Ba
503
2m
Planning for next season
J7P1
175
FORUM
NEW
TOPICS
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
TODAY
2024
Butcher
5
TODAY
Dan Norman Retires
Cokey
1
TODAY
How many games will we win
Butcher
5
TODAY
Leigh Leopards - 2025 Fixtures
ColD
2
TODAY
Catalan Away
jonh
5
TODAY
2025 Betfred Super League Fixtures
RLFANS News
1
TODAY
2025 fixtures
Smiffy27
15
TODAY
Fixtures
Willzay
13
TODAY
Salford
rubber ducki
12
TODAY
WCC Off
Choc Ice
11
TODAY
Leeds away first up
Butcher
41
TODAY
Jake McLoughlin
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Assistant Coach - Langley
exiledrhino
30
TODAY
Noah Booth out on loan
Butcher
20
TODAY
Luke Gale testimonial match
BarnsleyGull
2
TODAY
England 5 - 0 Ireland
Sadfish
1
TODAY
Magic Weekend 2025 - Back To Newcastle
RLFANS News
1
NEWS ITEMS
VIEWS
2025 Betfred Super League Fixt..
420
Magic Weekend 2025 - Back To N..
528
England Beat Samoa To Take Tes..
1269
England's Women Demolish The W..
1093
England Beat Samoa Comfortably..
1332
Operational Rules Tribunal –..
1128
IMG-RFL club gradings released..
1387
Wakefield Trinity Win Champion..
1927
Hunslet Secure Promotion After..
2145
Trinity Into Play Off Final Af..
2382
Wigan Warriors Crowned Champio..
1957
York Valkyrie Win Back to Back..
2194
Hunslet Book Relegation Play O..
2658
Penrith Panthers Secure Fourth..
2089
Wigan Humiliate Leigh For Gran..
2162


Visit the RLFANS.COM SHOP
for more merchandise!