Owens last week said with all the pre season training its the fittest he' ever been. We talk about Lomax but where is McD.

I'd release Owens. There is nothing there that we need. There must be a kid in the academy that could play to his level? I'd go as far as saying I'd play Paul Wellens over him, even now.

How far off fitness is McDonnell?

When you signed him it raised an eyebrow from me. Bottom 4 of superleague standard player at best. Would you not be better off playing Turner there until Lomax or Shannon are fit and either bring Burns back or play Wilkin at 6?

Neither was LMS on tonights showing.

LMS is definitely not a Saints standard centre. Unfortunately, the only guy who seems to think he's even remotely suited to playing centre happens to be the coach.

KC's selections are getting beyond bizarre. We needed a centre, a stand-off and a hooker. We had Turner (Centre), Burns & Fages (Stand-off) & Charnock (Hooker). We played our centre at stand-off, a second-row at centre, and hooker was split between a loose-forward and a stand-off.

I know players have to be adaptable, but that's not like pushing a loose forward into second row, or pushing a centre out to wing.

It's not really surprising that we struggled to do any attacking at all when we had people playing out of position all over the park. You train in a position, so you can perform well in attacking/defensive systems in that position during games.

I've generally kept my peace about KC to see how things developed, but I think his selections, and the consistent lack of any attacking threat or defensive ability on the edges, have become unsustainable.

The pre season training seemed to be built on muscle building with stamina from the vids.

However, fat lot of good that did us when we had no shape or speed.
I'm with the sad one on this tonight - KC is out of his depth.

I'd play Paul Atcheson over him ... Even now

Totally baffling and blinkered, KC wants to make Turner a no 6 at all costs at the expense of team balance and moral. I want Burns back in the side, he might not play well at times but at least he will show some fight in the back line, Turner back at centre he might make some defensive errors but at least we will have an attack out wide.

At the risk of sounding like a scratched record nothing's changed from last season in my mind and it was as clear as daylight to me then. KC is, was and always will be out of his depth as a head coach - most people now seem to be accepting it. I said it when he was appointed, and I'm not being a smart ***, but it will end in tears. The excuse makers will no doubt do just that for various aspects of last night's 'performance' but the truth is staring you in the face.

In the week he said 'we've prepared well and are ready but need to treat Salford with respect'. After the game he said' I sensed a little bit of complacency before the game'.

Which is it Keiron?

Great player. No coach.

Bang on

Be patient with Jack he didn't play a lot of rugby last year. I dare say it though performances like last night are why Widnes fans weren't too bothered about him being released. It was a shame as he is a local lad, but he's not moving Hanbury away from full back.

I will say - that is probably the worst I've seen him ever play.

That's the worst I've seen most of that team play!!!!!!

Any other club would be blooding Bailey at FB; his natural position. KC decided to play him out of position and he nearly ruined the lad.

He played him in a much easier position to start with. If a debut on the wing can nearly ruins them, I hope Greg Inglis, Billy Slater, Brett Morris, Darius Boyd, Roger Tuivasa-Sheck, Jack Wighton, James Tedesco (pretty much a list of every good NRL fullback at the minute) know about this. It's a much easier position to play, you don't have to ball-play or organise the defensive line, just make your tackles, catch your kicks and carry the ball. Cunningham can be criticised for many things but this isn't one of them. A good fullback should be able to play on the wing.

Just to add to that, Bailey played half a game against Dewsbury in preseason and looked pretty shaky under the high ball.