The best teams are better teams than the sum of their individual parts - at the moment the sum of our individual parts is higher than our team performance (as you mention with roby's performances!)

When you look at individual performances today, there's nothing particularly wrong with them, it's the line speed, aggression, tackling technique, attitude etc is where we were let down - and that all stems from one place.

Instead of treating the ball with respect, 3 different players look for miracle balls after making a break - do they no longer have faith in their team mates to capitalise on the break on the next tackle? Our wingers are jumping in - a sign they don't have faith in the men inside them in defence - and were doing a terrible job of protecting Walsh to limit him form doing defensive work - time and again today Waterhouse isolated him - he needs more protection. As a team, were just not clicking. No structure, no attitude and seemingly no belief in one another. I feel like everyone is working not to be blamed for defeat rather than contributing to a victory.

If you look at our good performances this year, it all stems from working as a team. Whether that is because the youngsters fit as a "team" better, there are senior player politics behind the scenes, or what, i don't know, but I don't know who will be the one to fix it.

Oh, and we need, for the love of god to stop sending lomax makinson and swift (and Dawson) in on the first second and third every single game, it's like sending lambs to slaughter, and means on every set were playing the ball on the third on our own 10 metre line. It's a fine tactic for Leeds with hall (as big as a prop) and hardaker, but just doesn't work with our diminutive slight wingers.

Yeah I know, I was at the game. Surprised he started today though, rather than starting from the bench. Thompson has something about him though for me but we'll have to wait and see.

Might be his age, but I don't think Thompson is a prop. Could go well as a lock though, already better than lms at it and that's lms' better position!

Surely it comes from the top, meaning the Chairman.
When Lenagan bought Wigan prior to the 2008 season he had a coach who had brought us from being a relegation team to a semi final team. IL said winning trophies was why he bought the club. End of 2009 Noble went and Mcguire was appointed after a lengthy search for the right coach by Lenagan.
2010 Mcguire brought in only one player, then won the league and the GF.
between them Lenagan and Mcguire changed the culture of the club. Wane succeeded McGuire in 2012. Both Mcguire and Wane won three trophies each.

I do think your Chairman has to go down the same route. He needs to find a coach who will change the culture of the club. Brown has brought his culture from Hudds to Saints. Start a season well then fade into oblivion, which is what I think will happen to Saints this year. Amor's return may stem the slide.
He then has to sign the right players and unload those not good enough.

A long road for suffering fans but as a Wigan fan who well remembers 2006 under Millward the change is remarkable. The performance by a makeshift side v Leeds proves this IMO. There again your younger player did the same v Leeds. Perhaps a more ruthless approach of "play well and you're in, play poorly and you're out" should be implemented. I don't think you will go far wrong with that.
Our younger players played for themselves and the shirt v Leeds, didn't yours do the same? Your fans are calling for players with pride and passion, you have them at your club you just need a coach who'll play them.
If Brown won't select them then your Chairman needs to take action.
If he doesn't it will be same old, same old!

Antony Walker is one of the worst players to ever put on a jersey. People wanted rid of Clough yet he is twice the player Walker will ever be. His not even that (YOUNG). Apparantly he trains well. Never been impressed with him, even for the 18's and 20's. Get Savelio in and stop fuc*ing about.

I've been calling for players to be dropped all season but I'm going to argue against myself on this one occasion - I don't think THIS weekend is the time to do it.

In my opinion, if you've had the gauntlet thrown down by your coach and an icon like Paul Wellens, you see how people react.

I genuinely believe that this weekend could be the last game in a saints shirt for those who don't react positively.

I'd be playing our "first choice" available 17 against Huddersfield then making changes, perhaps PERMANENT changes, for the week after based on who does and does not perform. I don't necessarily mean did they have a great game or not, I mean did they look ready to run through walls or not. Everyone can have an off day, but it's the effort, application and pride that I want to see back.

I don't know whether anyone has heard [url=http://www.redvee.net/interviews/Wello.mp3this interview[/url with Paul Wellens, much fuller than the one on Sky, but I agree with him about the mental attitude. However, why we are still playing the players who are showing a poor mental attitude is very much down to the coaching staff.

Fully agree.

I was never Wellens biggest fan as a player, BUT I love his passion for his own town club and the game in general. He was really hurting yesterday as he was in the Cup defeat at HKR last year. You can hear his emotion and anger in that interview.

Do you need to bring in some local lads who, although they may not be the best in their position will fight for their life to wear the shirt.
Paul Clough IMO was one of those players, and would have been a better keep than say LMS.

Looking from the outside I do wonder if there is some sort of power struggle going on at Saints, I found Browns comments very interesting. He sounded like a coach just waiting for THAT phone call.

I fear that you are correct.

We appear to have a club that is all about names and reputation rather than effort and commitment.

How else can one explain LMS being a continued certain selection? It is actually ridiculous that he can keep trotting out onto the pitch each week after yet another disgraceful performance.

We also have a fanbase who feeds this ethos, buying into how good the team is "on paper" and how "average" Wigan are, and only just acknowledging now that games (and trophies) are won through effort and commitment rather than names and salaries.

The approach of the whole club is dishonest, in the sense that there are too many players who can't or won't put in the sheer effort required to succeed, a position worsened through having a coach that refuses to drop them when they continue to fall short. It's all too comfortable.

Harsh words were needed - EMac started the ball rolling with little response. Now Wellens and Brown have finally come out publically with what the fans have known for some time - we have a squad full of soft, corner cutting players with vastly inflated senses of worth.

Yes, bringing Amor, Laffranchi, Manu, Swift, Percival, Wheeler into the team would strengthen us BUT without a culture shift we'll continue to be bullied off the park by more committed (not necessarily more naturally talented) teams.

Just look at the reaction when McManus bagged the whole playing staff from players to coaches! We put in a sub par awful performance against London!

The is no reaction in this team, we've got to many players that don't care. The likes of Turner, Mose, Lms, laffranchi etc are just to happy win or lose.

Even tho wello is best his best and shouldn't really play, he still has pride in himself and the club but certain other players who have ability haven't got and pride.