By Christ, this is a depressing thread. My take? I don't blame Brown in the slightest. How can you? He needs to be given 3 or 4 years to rebuild the team from the ground up.

The fans are going to have to be patient and understand that we are severly lacking in the major pivot positions either due to injury or bad recruitment. I am seriously hoping we will be implementing a firesale in pre-season.

I blame Brown for causing unnecessary disruption to the team at the weekend by playing Howarth and Wello as our halfback combination, which is probably one reason why we were so naff in the first half - we hadn't a clue who was supposed to be doing what. It was totally dumb to mess up our pivots for a knock out game.

It would be okay for the fans if the club was making an effort to improve things. But it isn't, there is no effort or will to improve things.

Greg Eden tore us to pieces yesterday and was ultimately the difference between the sides. He moved to Hull KR for nothing. The club ignored his availability despite our coach saying he could be as good as Billy Slater. Every other club in Super League has at least two established half backs, we have none and we haven't tried to sign any either. Rangi Chase is available now and we're not doing anything. Michael Dobson is also probably available as Hull KR are in a mess financially and again, we've not even attempted anything. Why did Perry, Hohaia and Laffranchi start this season still at Saints? Why weren't they released?

In modern sport no team has 3 or 4 years to build and improve. It no longer works like that. Sport is a short term, results driven business. If the team isn't competitive the fans won't watch them in as great a number. There is a serious risk that we won't even make the play offs this year, that's how far we've dropped. The likes of Hull KR, Hull and Bradford are now arguably better teams than we are and the likes of Huddersfield, Catalans have already passed us. I posted on another thread the stats about our crowd figures. We are probably £1/2m down in terms of revenue by now due to the drop in crowds and next year is going to continue that trend if the club doesn't get back to having a team that is competing for trophies. I've been going to Saints for 25 years and this year is the first time I'm seriously debating not renewing my season ticket and I know plenty of people in that position too. The stadium is half finished and a souless place to watch sport, the team is a bunch of average players going through the motions and the entertainment value given to the fans is appalling. I really don't see how anyone can claim to enjoy watching Saints at the moment, it's more of a chore than a pleasure these days.

McManus just needs to stop being so lazy with his recruitment decisions. He's making easy choices, signing players that are okay, that will fill the gap. There is no desire or commitment to improve anything. It's time for the club to find the money and invest in the players to get us back into contention. Transfer fees are such a taboo word around the club, but it's the time now where they either have to do it or leave. There is nothing to be gained from going through the motions like we are now. We'll miss out on the commercial potential of the stadium and will still be massively loss making. Spending some money now and getting us back to being a vibrant, exciting team and having 15,000+ crowds is essential.

Very good post. I agree. There has undoubtedly been misfortune and unforseeable events. However, as you so rightly say, this isn't a sufficient excuse for the directionless play and the often baffling selection options. There are still some very good players at the club, who would walk into most SL sides as automatic selections. That we're in danger of slipping out of the top 8 is a fairly damning indictment of Brown's inability to get the best out of what he has, just as much as it is a consequence of bad luck and poor recruitment.

Jordan Turner IMO is a winger. He's got the makings of being a good centre but he needs a rocket up his bum. He's got no desire or motivation. He just goes thru the motions.

I'd honestly be looking for a centre and Turner being a winger.

I think it would depend on who you can recruit. If you can recruit a winger, he stays at centre, if you can recruit a centre then he can take Meli's Wing.

To those sirens shouting we must make a signing now, i give you one name Hohoia.

That is what happens when you make quick rash decisions.

Lance is a decent player, but when we signed him quite a few of us thought, yes he is a good player but were will he play for us? For me his best two positions are fullback and hooker, however we have better players there.

Sport is as much about luck as it is about skill in decision making. All the planning in the world can blow up in your face if a player suffers a key injury or someone you were looking to build your team around decides he wants to play RU or move to the NRL. In Eastmond, Saints lost the then England halfback, and in Graham we lost the Worlds best prop forward. No team would be able to handle such losses without repercussions.

A good example of luck in signings is Sean Long. He was a Wigan reject playing lower division football. Saints took a punt on him despite having other players in the halves. Many people at the time were wondering were he would fit into the team as we had Tommy Martyn, Bobbie Goulding, Lee Briers and Karl Hammond to cover in the halves, yet look how that all turned out.

Paul Wellens has for me been a St.Helens legend. He has been an anchor at the back for club and country, being one of the best British players of his generation. However for the last few years its been increasingly plain for people to see that the Anchor has been turning into a lead weight that has been dragging the team down. Last year Paul had an excellent season being our top try scorer, top tackle buster, top clean break maker and fourth best in try assists.
To a significant extent we were dependant on Paul last year to pull things out of the bag. This raised the conundrum in my mind that I felt it was time to hand over the number one shirt to a new player but in doing so the side would take a hit due to the readjustment the team would have to make in terms of playing style. I was worried about the scale of the hit we would take. We are seeing that hit now as by moving Lomax from the halves to the fullback slot it has left a gaping hole in the halves. It is to Nathan Browns credit that he has been prepared to take the tough decision and move things on rather than play it safe. Other recent coaches were not prepared to do this, and that has made the task all the harder for the team to adjust to life without Wello.

Saints have the nucleus for a good side. I can see that Brown is looking to give us more pace in the backline, we can see that in his signing of Turner, the use of Lomax and Makinson at fullback and the promotion of the pacey but young Percival that there is the makings of a strike threat from deep.

He has identified that the pack is small. I think this was masked in recent years by Graham and Roby. Graham did the work of two props, and Robys scooting made us yards that the forwards themselves couldnt make. Robys injury has shown to everyone how easily out muscled our front row is. By ridding ourselves of the addiction to scooting which was started by Milward, then we should have a more balanced side that in big games would be harder to combat. It wont simply be a case of stopping Roby from running at dummy half. I noticed before Robys injury that he was playing a different game this season. Gone was the obsession from running from dummy half, instead he was merely stepping out of dummy half and using his self as a foil for the other forwards to run onto. This to me was an indication of the change in style to a more orthodox gameplan of letting the props make the yards rather than the hooker.

I also think he knew we were short in the halves. Comments from him indicated that he was unsure with lance as a halfback, and selections have shown that he isnt keen to play Hohioa there, preferring him at hooker.
Lomax was moved from scrum half were his talent was being wasted, and Gaskell was fired off due to alleged lack of professionalism.
Wheeler i suspect is in Browns plans as one of the halfbacks, but has unfortunately suffered that serious injury.

I therefore suspect that next year Brown will want to bring in two big props and a scrum half.
Get that right and we will have the makings of a very good team.

Percival and jones are better than him.

Turner is one of them players that really frustrates me. If he put a extra 10% in he'd actually break the line. Hes just happy to be out there and go thru the motions.

Disagree with you. I thought Turner showed again against Hull KR that he can give a wingman some lovely passes.
He lacks the agility and change of pace to dance around people, but his size and pace does mean he sucks in tacklers and makes yards in the contact zone.

I get the impression Pete that what you are asking for is Mal Meninga, and because you arent getting that, you have dismissed his ability as a player.
Funnily enough when Meninga was at Saints there were some who felt he was lazy.

Excellent post mate.

He's only been here for a couple of months. The current squad had nothing to do with Nathan Brown so you can't blame for that side of things. For me, the main issue this season is the pack, and has been for a while now. We aren't talking about an issue than has just popped up this season, we have had this same problem for a while now. Luckily for us, we had James Graham who carried us on his back for a couple of years, and who do we replace him with? A Second Row in Anthony Laffranchi. I have no doubts that he would be a quality second rower, but out front row is so poor that we have no other option but to throw him in there. Even when we had Jammer, we were still struggling against the likes of Wigan and Wire's packs and what ever way you dress it up, we have been overachieving for years now. We reached the Semi Final last year - in fact we were 40 minutes away from Old Trafford. The worst thing that could have happened IMO. We needed to reassess things and start a fresh in Pre Season, and unfortunately 2012 papered over the cracks once again.

Wigan and Warrington have both been through periods like this one, but the fans got behind there club and backed them 100%. It may take a year, it may take two or even three, but we will come back stronger, I have no doubt about that. Leeds are coming to a stage now where the likes of Sinfield, McGuire and Burrow are approaching the end of their playing careers, and I expect that they will go through a similar sort of period to what we are going through. Brown has given a great amount of young players an opportunity this season, and although that may be down to the injury situation, he has trusted in them to do the job which will prove to be highly beneficial in the long run.

Our pack consists of five Second Rowers, and our only real Prop is Alex Walmsley - a signing from Batley who I imagined would only play half a dozen games this season. Paul Clough has been superb for us this season, but I still see him as a Back Rower personally. Our only other Prop, Josh Perry, is out injured once again, and LMS doesn't look as though he could care less at the minute. When things start to go wrong, the first man looked at is the coach, but there isn't anything he can do at the minute. He is doing his best with the squad he has, and he deserves a chance with a full squad before people start pointing the finger. We are the only team in the competition without a decent set of props and halves, and they are ultimately the key positions on the field. Look at Hull KR. They aren't superb out wide, but in Dobson and Burns they had two halves who knew exactly what they were doing, and we playing behind a set of props that ran hard and straight and took them forward. Nothing fancy, just hard work, and the halves gave them direction on the back of that.

We have had the same problems for years, and I can't understand how any of that is Nathan Brown's fault. Any coach in the world - no matter how good would struggle to coach these set of players, because the reality is, we aren't good enough in the key areas. You can't fault anyone for effort, but the fact of the matter is that you can't compete against the best sides without a decent set of Props, and a 6 and 7. Until we sort that out we won't go anywhere, no matter who is in charge.

I see your point re rushing anything but the situation with Long wasnt quite as you put it. Briers was already gone , Goulding was volatile, Martyn was injury prone Hammond was a loose forward by then and we were thin on the ground for cover. Longy was ripping it up at Widnes and was a known talent at the time - the pies only got rid for off field issues not a lack of talent.

I think a panic move would be silly but Stevie Wonder can see we need a scrum half so if we could get a decent one in I honestly dont see how we could go wrong (assuming we actually buy a scrum half and not another bloody fullback). If there was a Sean Long somewhere in the Championship I'd love us to sign him up !!

I'd get Sean long until the end of the season if he's up for it. It would be 100% better than we got now.

I'm sure he'd love a last hurrah in the redvee and he couldnt possibly be worse than Wello or Howarth