Nah. That's no excuse. They were poor defensively from the outset. With the exception of Roby and Jammer. I think Royce had it right after the Sheffield game. He saw them give up defensively and was worried. It's a bad attitude and it's come back into the side. We went into halftime nilled again. Clearly there is an issue with this side about taking pride in their defence.

And besides, I know that when a Saints player speaks to the press about what they need to do, it's not going to happen! Wilkin spoke to the press last week about needing to take more pride in defence and what happens? We ship in over 40 points for the first time in how long? I can't remember.

Eh?

Where's the correlation between us being nilled and not taking pride in defence?

Do you not think we could have been fatigued / sore / injured from the outset?

We had 8 fit for non contact training earlier this week.

8.

The Sia one was a head on tackle, he got flat footed as he did at hull.

If Ashe and shenton are missing tackles due to being to tired and needing a rest then we have big problems!

There is none, if it was 0-0, but it never is. Too many times this season we have gone into halftime with nil but with the opposition at 12 or worse. That means we are defending more than we need to, quite often because we've dropped the ball or something. But to ship 40 plus points for the first time in five years is very poor.

And you can talk about tiredness, but not making effective tackles and then having to scramble defence is far more tiring to a player than making the initial tackle properly. We were flying all over the place and mostly missing.

There is no excuse for that lack of defensive effort. None.

I'll give you the Sia one, I don't think his defence is his strength (although when he hits them, they stay hit).

Ashe is injured, and Shenton may well be fatigued if not injured also.

The point is, rather than pick out individual mistakes, there has to be a recognition that we're sending out a team that's knocked about, full of kids and out of position players due to an injury situation the like of which I've not seen in 27 years of watching Saints.

It's harsh, IMO, to be overly critical on individual mistakes when the reality is with the luck and off field issues we've had thus far we are punching well and truly above our weight.

Do you not think there are extenuating circumstances surrounding us shipping 40 points? Or having to 'fly all over the place'?

Like a sellotaped together, mostly injured, rather inexperienced line up?

I don't believe there was lack of effort, just lack of fuel.

Sorry mate but anyway you try and dress it, shenton missed a poor one on one tackle against a old player deemed not good enough at saints. If Shenton is fatigued then he's got serious fitness problems for a centre at his age!

Nice 'Daily Mail' sensationalising with the 'old guy deemed not good enough stuff'!!

As I've said, it's harsh to be bashing individual mistakes when we're doing well to get 17 bodies out there in the vee, but whatever floats your boat.

I'm proud of 'em.

No. Royce identified the warning signs after the match last week but he can't force the players to defend on the day. All those players, no matter what age, were capable of defence. They all learn how to tackle. They missed tackles all over the shop and Wello's positioning was largely terrible.

The only player on that pitch I excuse is Nathan Ashe and that's only because he had to have his knee strapped up further during the match, suggesting he was in pain, which would have made tackling more difficult. The rest don't get a bye on this. They were poor.

However, I didn't expect us to do much in attack because there was no way Wilkin was going to perform well with a rookie halfback at his side as he isn't a halfback himself.

So there are no extenuating circumstances.

Really?

And you're not injured unless you're visibly strapped?

And there's no way Wello came back to early to help out with the appalling injury situation?

Ok then.

Royce Out!

I'm also very proud of them but still think some sloppy defence cost us at times.

You're getting silly now, so I think I will leave this. We'll have to agree to disagree.

As for Royce out ... far from it. I think he's done wonders with them given the hand he has been dealt. He can't force his team to defend, only give them the tools to use if they choose to.

So is there only me who came away with a mediocum of pride tonight?

We have cobbled together a side, with out 6th and 8th choice half backs, lost two players mid game, and still every player ran their blood to water. Yes, we missed stupid tackles, and yes we made stupid errors. But add Puletua and either Pryce, Lomax or Wheeler (and heavens to betsy, Eastmond) to that side, and it looks infinitely better.

We have a lot of kids starting to stand up, Magennis is putting in some bell ringing hits, Foster looks like he could beak the line on every return.

A couple of bodies back and the out look is not so bleak.

NEVER write off the Saints.

Very proud of the young players. And Roby. But the defensive effort was still poor. And some of the senior players were shocking defensively. I would have been bursting with pride had they kept Hudds to about 20 points. But they didn't. So they were marginally better than Harlequins.

Not sure which part of it is silly.

You did say there were no extenuating circumstances.

You did say only Ashe is forgiven missed tackles and poor positioning because he had strapping.

But I suspect agreeing to disagree is the way to go.

Gin and tonic?