The extract from the laws of the game below suggest that neither Mr Cummins nor Mr Bentham actually understand the laws of the game. The reference is clearly to offside being judged against the position of the players, not wishing to be a gramatical pedant, but the placement of commas is clear, the reference can only be to the position of players.

Interestingly there is no reference whatsoever to feet, planted or otherwise. Mr Cummins & Mr Benthams job is to apply the laws, they have no authority to make them up.

If this was placed before lawyers, Smith was offside, however fortunately matches are not decided in the courts, Leeds won, Saints lost and both sides will get good and bad calls in future.

As for the refs, Mr Cummins will continue to fail to improve refereeing standards as long as he continues to argue up is down, better to say nothing than complete rubbish.

1
THE INTERNATIONAL LAWS OF THE GAME
AND
NOTES ON THE LAWS
Page
SECTION 14 Offside ......................................................................36

SECTION 14
OFF SIDE
When off side 1. A player is off side except when he is in his own ingoal
if the ball touches, is touched, held or kicked, by
one of his own team behind him.
Out of Play 2. An off side player shall not take any part in the game
or attempt in any way to influence the course of the
game. He shall not encroach within ten metres of an
opponent who is waiting for the ball and shall
Retire ten metres immediately retire ten metres from any opponent
who first secures possession of the ball.
Placed onside 3. An off side player is placed onside if:
(a) an opponent moves ten metres or more with the
ball.
(b) an opponent touches the ball without retaining it.
(c) one of his own team in possession of the ball
runs in front of him.
(d) one of his own team kicks or knocks the ball
forward and takes up a position in front of him in
the field of play.
(e) he retires behind the point where the ball was last
touched by one of his own team.
NOTES
Catcher claiming 1. A player who catches the ball near an off side opponent must
off side not go out of his way to make interference in play by the
offside player unavoidable. He should proceed with normal
play and rely on the Referee to penalise the off side player if
the latter interferes with play. If the catcher deliberately and
unnecessarily runs into the off side player then play should
proceed.
Accidental off side Where the Referee is satisfied that interference with play by
an off side player is accidental he should order a scrum.
Interfering with 2. Any off side player who remains within ten metres of an
Catcher opponent who is set to catch a kick up field by an opposing
player shall be deemed to be interfering with or attempting to
interfere with the catcher and shall be penalised unless the
non-offending team gains an immediate advantage.
“Out of Play” as 3. Players who are out of play at a play-the-ball (Section 11), a
opposed to “off side” scrum (Section 12), a kick off or drop-out (Section a
penalty kick (Section 13) or a free kick (Section 13) are not
put “on side” in the manner described in para 3 above. (See
appropriate Sections).
“Down town” Any player who is in front of the kicker in general play is not
permitted to advance beyond the point of the previous playthe-
ball until the ball has gone past the off side players. This
rule delays the movement of the off side players downfield in
an attempt to encircle the ball receiver as he collects the ball.
rugby_laws_book 2002 NEW 11/3/04 1:00 PM Page 36
37
Section 14. Offside (continued)
Example of offside 3. (e)
player retrieving ball
Player A kicks the ball and
opponent B attempts to catch it.
He drops the ball which rolls
behind him. His colleague C
who was originally in front of
him drops back to retrieve the
ball. When he gets to it he is
behind the point at which it was
played by B, indicated by the
line XY, and is not off side.
Player A kicks the ball and
opponent B fails to catch it, the
ball bouncing forward off his
hands. Player C is off side if he
plays the ball unless B advances
in front of the ball before C
reaches it, in which case a scrum
would be ordered for a knock-on.
3(e)
A
B
C
X Y
A
B
C
X Y
rugby_laws_book 2002 NEW 11/3/04 1:00 PM Page 37
38
04 1:00 PM Page 60

that shows me leon pryce coming into contact with ball so onside is the only answer

You do understand how perspective works dont you? your image is incorrect and proves nothing other than you being unable to grasp perspective.

No it shouldn't be parallel.

Even dafter, the poster has used a BBC screen grab and drawn his own random line on it to "prove" his own deluded point, if he'd waited for a few seconds longer he'd have seen the BBC's own graphics and could have screen grabbed that one instead - mind, it didn't provide evidence for his delusion, so maybe not.

There is no specific reference in the rules in relation to kicks in general play and how you mark a player as being on-side or off-side in relation to this kick. However, if Mr Cummins does reply I think he will point you to Section 13, Rule 3 as being the general interpretation of off-side and on-side at a kick and that the rules remaining consistent on this rules for kicks. That of course states that players have to be behind the ball not the player to be on-side!

This has always being my understanding of what is considered on-side/off-side for any kick and is the key point.

I do think the rules could be a little clearer on this but I am sure, disappointing some Saints fans, it would talk about being behind the ball, not the being level or behind the player with the ball!

The 40/20 is a Red Herring, because as stated the rule is about the position of a player on the field and not about another players position in relation to the ball.

They are being consistent with the rules... but agree it could be clearer!

For all of those without a rule book the section concerns Penalty kicks

Position of Players
3. Players of the kicker’s team must be behind the ball
when it is kicked.
Players of the team opposing the kicker shall retire to
their own goal line or ten metres or more from the
mark towards their own goal line and shall not make
any attempt to interfere with or distract the attention
of the kicker.
They may advance after the ball has been kicked.

Looks like it is the only reference to a player and the position he has to be in reference to anything (in this case the ball) - if that is what refs take as their interpretation then so be it - I would have been less happy about this until you realise the rule before states - [iA player may take a penalty kick by punting, drop kicking, or place kicking the ball[/i so it could be stretched to include kicks in play.

Thanks for your assistance Armadillo - no such help did ever come from Cummins

No problems, you are welcome.

For your reference as well, being behind the ball at a kick also appears in Section 6, Rule 9 and states -

Players’ positions 9.

When a kick at goal is being taken following a try, the
opposing players shall stand outside the field of play.
Players of the kicker’s team must be behind the ball.
When a kick at goal is being taken from a penalty
kick, the opponents shall retire to their goal line or
not less than 10 metres from the mark. (See Section
13).

...and here in Section 8, Rule 2 -

The ball may be kicked in any manner and in any
direction and is immediately in play. Opposing players
shall retire ten metres from the 20m line and shall not
advance until the ball has been kicked. Defending
players shall not advance in front of the ball before it is
kicked. Any deliberate offence by either team shall incur
a penalty to be awarded at the centre of the 20m line.

But the Original Section 13, Rule 3 is the one that most closely applies.

Oh, and on Cummins I really do think he should make an effort to search out the more rational e-mails and answer them but I understand he very rarely does!

This is the best visual I've seen as posted by King Whino. The red Line is in proper perspective and this is the frame Bentham used to make his decision.

Smith was onside, according to the rules.

Whether he was onside or not, you cannot simply just draw a line parallel with the white line as the perspective changes.

If you continued that parallel line towards the try line, then you would see how incorrect it is.

That proves how little you know about perspective then! I am really tempted to drop that frame into Autocad and draw a perspective grid on the whole picture.

Can you tell my where you think the rail camera is in relation to the lines on the pitch? I think I can get it to within a metre or so?

Surprisingly its Hughes that it photo shopped to push Smith offside, check iplayer or the SL site.
IMO it’s that close its impossible to say whether he was onside or offside, Pryce is in the way on all camera angles to see clearly, it does look like smiths planted foot could be behind the ball (although I don’t know if that is the correct rule).

The only problem I have is the people who are calling it a ridiculous decision and game changing, it wasn’t ridiculous, it was a very tight call that went the attacking team’s way and unless Saints had a game plan of keeping Leeds within 1 score until the 73rd minute then unleashing all hell it’s still 12-10 to Leeds.

The decision for me was far less contentious than the Long tackle in the semi against Wigan.

Does not look too far out to me at all!



I have found the vanishing point using the 10m and Try lines and then drawn a vertical line, which of course indicates the location of the camera relative to the pitch, so roughly between the 3m and 4m line for me. The other line is as best as I can do on the front of Smith's foot to the vanishing point.

So the rail camera is around 5m+ in front of the play and looking back at an angle at the point Bentham used as his reference for the decision!

Looks really tight to me, and difficult to see the ball because of Pryce!

In that still Pryce is blocking the ball, but on TV the position of the ball was always clear.



But the distance between the line on the screen and the *true* line will be so small as to make no difference. And any difference would be in Smith's favour anyway.