Come on then, who are all these Saints players that would make the Wigan 17, or indeed the starting 13?

I'd keep Laffranchi too. He didn't have his best game today but he's been our best prop all season and has a great offloading game when on song. But as for the rest I would be very happy to see the lot sent packing, and I include TP in that too as he can be lazy in defence and also in his willingness to take up the ball sometimes. He used to pass to Jammer a lot.



We just miss Jammer in the forwards. We have nobody anywhere near his callibre or with his fire or willingness to take up the ball.

Get real! Player for player you're not in the same league at the moment! Wellens or Tomkins? Finch or Hohaia? Your pack, Roby and Soliola (when he's in the pack) aside, is distinctly second rate. Sure, good coaching makes a big difference; something I pointed out in a thread on this very board when, after the first round of matches, you were all gloating about what a mistake 'The Ape' was going to be and how Wigan were looking at a swift decline. Top of the league and in the semi-final of the Challenge cup. Not bad for a 'mistake' eh? Some of you desreve to be eating humble pie right now...





A serious question for you now. Are you really that blind that you think your current team is capable of playing our structures? Wellens isn't quick, inventive or elusive enough, Your pack isn't aggressive enough and your halves aren't capable of controlling a game. One more question. Are you seriously suggesting that Tony Smith, a coach who has been a success and won trophies at several sides isn't capable of putting structures in place that would allow them to be top of the league (er....a bit like he did last year for example) if the players were up to it? The bottom line is that Warrington aren't at the top this season because they are too reliant on aging, injury prone players, specifically Lee Briers, Adrian Morley and Brett Hodgeson. They're still capable of turning in good performances...just not as regularly as they'd need to to be top of the table currently.



You say you aren't taking anything away from Wigan but, in fact, that's exactly what yoy ARE trying to do by suggesting that you'd be top of the league if you played with our structures. If it was that simple why have successive coaches been able to get you playing that way? The simple truth is that you aren't as good a team as Wigan at them moment. Just as we weren't as good as the dominant Saints team of a few years ago. Or was that just because we weren't playing the right structures too and not because you had the better team?

Great post!

not to take away from a good post, but didnt maguire take the same team, add deacon, and dominate the league?

Prescott has been just as good as Mossop so far this year although they have slightly different playing styles. Mossop has a better work rate but Prescott is harder to bring down and a much better ball player. Prescott is also more important in Wigan's attacking moves and more likely to put players through gaps. I'd take both of them over LMS, Laffranchi, Perry etc.

Ithankyew!

Based on player ability/talent and not current form (which is all you'll be using to judge on naturally but which would be criminally unfair given our respective current coaching situations):



1. Tompkins

2. Richards*

3. Wheeler

4. Carmont*

5. Meli

6. Finch

7. Lomax (not a #7 but would need to be in my team somewhere and Finch would make him 10x more effective there)

8. La Frank

9. Roby

10. TP

11. Soliola

12. Hock

13. O'Loughlin

14. Mossop

15. Clough **

16. Wilkin

17. Hohaia ***



* Both look past their best, especially Richards, so you can have Charnley and Goulding instead if you want. Shenton should probably feature ahead of Goulding on the talent/ability scale, but has been so disappointing for Saints so far that I just can't justify it.



** Clough has admittedly been **** for 2 years but I'm still hopeful he'll reignite with a decent coach.



*** OK, OK I'm joking... Leuluai



I make that a 9-8 Saints win (10-7 if you still hold out any hope of Shenton coming good, 11-6 in the ever increasingly unlikely event that Perry isn't washed up now), no 3 or 4 man holding down and ground-writhing required.



And no McIlorum instead of Roby

im not sure thats a good way to analyse as surely player ability/talent should be apparent regardless of coaching should it not?

Don't be ridiculous - let me start coaching Wigan and I'll have them all looking like a bunch of National League donkeys in no time.

Indeed. Which is why I say good coaching DOES make a difference. However you can't train a donkey to win the Derby (no pun intended!

). The simple fact is that Saints, for the reasons I posted, aren't currently a good enough side to play the structures Wigan play and to suggest, as the original poster did, that if they did they'd be top of the league is disingenious. He knows better, I'm sure. As many posters on here know, I'm not one of life's gloaters. I came on here to read a Saints perspective of today's game. I wouldn't have commented normally, but the post was nonsense and demanded a response.

This is the most one eyed comment I have seen and that's from a Leeds fan!!

Your are either talking out of your Harris or taking the mick.

Roby is the best hooker in the league by far. Mclorum is ok but nowhere near the class of roby.

i agree that a coach can be rubbish and can coach players to be rubbish, but i think robys tackling wouldnt be coached out of him, nor could a kicking game be coached into lomaxs nal over any period under years.

edit not meant as an insult to lomax, just that his kicking game needs working on.

I've probably not put it across very well but I'm not saying player for player we're better than you, I agree that in that aspect you are ahead of us at the moment. What I am saying is that it's your structures that set you apart from everybody else and that if other teams worked with those structures and you worked with a different teams structures they'd probably swap around. It's your structures that make you so good.

Is this a serious post? So the side that has comprehensively beaten you on BOTH occassions and outperformed you player for player would have 8 players to the beaten sides 9? Or even 7 to 10?!?! Your pack has been completely dominated on BOTH occassions. Your backs have looked ponderous and your halves clueless. Mate...you've lost the plot! Can I just ask what exactly you're basing these choices on? Stats? Performance from either match? Or shall we just put it down to wishful thinking?

But surely the reason Wigan play so well to those structures is because that particular set of players is capable of doing so? In other words, it isn't the structures themselves which are the winning factor but rather that those structures suit the players available. Saints will need different structures due to the players we have. The problem is not that we don't have Wigan's structures, or indeed anyone else's structures, but that we have no structures at all.



Or is that what you were saying?

This was the thing that annoyed me the most today, look at Leulaui (who isn't even a Wiganer), Hock, O Loughlin and more and how they throw everything into the tackle making good contact helping their team control the ruck. We look at Roby as out best tackler because no-one else even comes close. We may get 3 men in the tackle but on more than one occasion today Wigan were able to wriggle free and possibly offload or somehow over raw his tackler.



I love Wellens for what he has done but I'm not starting to wonder whether to play Makinson at FB for example the break Wello made today past Hughes. If that had been TMak it would have been see you later fellas I'm under the black dots but it wasn't and this combined with Hohaia and his dallying with the ball really made things tough today. I think Wheeler could have got into the game more today too, he was content sitting out on the wing dropping anything that came near him. Get yourself in the game Gary, you have the ability to change it! Lomax didn't dictate the team right partially because he didn't even know if he was getting the ball from Hohaia but also because he is a confidence player and that was where he slipped up today. The passes that hit the floor from dummy half in the early stage of the 1st half were embarrassing.



Where to start on the pack! Perry went backwards again, Robes barely had scraps to play off, Flannery was a passenger and Sia was too interested in Gaz Ock's eye colour. LMS had impact and heart, Clough did the hard yards that Perry can only dream about making. Magennis was cumbersome (i think he is still trying to catch old man Finch now) and Wilkin was very meh. Laffranchi gave it a good fist and i don't really have any faults with him, arguably the best of the lot we have brought in recently. We miss TP big time, undoubtedly. The pack didnt come to the party today whereas Wigan turned up with presents and the cake AND they were playing one guy light too.



Frustrated, disappointed but just left wondering where the desire in this team is going to come from.

Our attack has no structures thats for certain! Keeping wigan to so few points shows the defence is ok, but the attack is poor

Yeah, that's what I was attempting to say. If other teams had structures that were as good as Wigans but suited to their players then some teams would be an awful lot better. If that makes any sense at all?

Ah, ok. I see where you're coming from. However to put it [upurely[/u down to structures is not giving credit where it's due. This is a very good Wigan team. The best I've seen in quite a while. Hence the 2 trophies in as many seasons and currently standing top of the league and one game away from Wembley again. We won at a canter today without even playing to our ability and, as the saying goes, that's always the sign of a good team. Saints time will come again. Of that I have no doubt. But as it stands, your current team couldn't play the gameplan that this Wigan side does. However, as a hypothetical I agree with what you're saying. Maybe you could have put it better though and not been so quick to dismiss what is clearly an important part of the success; i.e. the ability to play to the structures in the first place.

I'm not saying Wigan are a bad team playing with good structures, you're a good team playing with good structures. If you had structures at the level similar to ours you'd probably be around still be in the top 3 on ability alone but it's your structures that set you apart.

Exactly.

If this is a serious post then you want to think about going to watch a different sport cos you know naff all about rugby league

I don't think there is any discussion really: this is a very good organised Wigan team.



In terms of the pointless hypothetical argument of who would get into the wigan team: I'd say that only TP, Roby and Soliola (outside chance of Laffranchi who has been a great buy) would get in on current form. I don't think anybody else would get in to be honest.



I'm still trying to get over the fact that one Wigan fan thinks Roby is one-dimensional!