Lol at Mugwump ignoring every valid point made to him and picking out one sentence and taking it massively out of context to try and "win" a discussion.

That's ludicrous.

I don't wish to stoke this argument, but if you check the top 10 players for metres gained, 5 of them are backs.

If you compare us to Leeds, not only are we lacking on metres gained, but we're well behind on clean breaks (which lead to a massive gain in yards).

The problem with the pack isn't all about personnel, we've got that. Big guys in Mose & Walmsley, Grafters in Amor, Flash and Wilkin, Big Guys on the fringes in Greenwood, LMS and Vea, the indomitable James Roby, plus a good set of youngsters. It can be improved, but its hard to get a perfect roster.

What we lack is, consistent line speed, discipline, we don't seem to get fast play of the balls, we don't seem to slow the oppostion's PTB enough and we don't really do much offloading.

Past that, into the backs, we don't get enough decent ball to our centres (how many time did Percy get decent ball against Wigan). Too many of Walsh's short ball to forwards are being too easily read and they're getting snotted.

ALL OF THIS means we're down on yards, we're down on clean breaks and we're winning games "somehow".

We are way down on tackle busts and clean breaks compared to last year which might explain in part our poor metres. Our missed tackles and penalties are up from last year which means we have to work harder without the ball.

If you take away Walmsleys stats this season, on paper we are a very mediocre team.

Our biggest problem is Offside Monkey Quote What we lack is, consistent line speed, discipline, we don't seem to get fast play of the balls, we don't seem to slow the oppostion's PTB enough and we don't really do much offloading. This has never been addressed and until we do, then we can't expect to control games like we have done in the past.

I reckon the standard of Superleague is falling year on year, every "top team" has gone through bad patches which was once for a couple of games these days it is 4 or 5 games of poor form, this probably helps us in winning games where in the past we wouldn't.

Obviusly the back three will mostly make best meters as they do kick returns.

I'm more bothered about the lack of getting out of our own half. Look at our packs meters per player compared to wigans last fridsy

Which need to be looked at first, though, in your opinion? Our pack getting out of our half against a very quick Wigan defensive line, or improving our line speed so that it puts a similar pressure on Wigan?

As well as our defensive line being slower, Wigan were getting lots more quick plays, which meant getting yards forward was easy.
You're an experienced player, is this something that some players struggle to comprehend in training - the importance of the wrestle?

First things first we need to win the ground on the kick returns. That first play off the kick is the most important carry of the set off a kick. It determines the momentum of the set and we have struggled there since we lost lomax and then Tommy. We've had Dawson in the back three who is dead wirh the ball as is Quinlan who is possibly the worst kick returner in super league. The long hanging ball to Swify is slowing us down. We need to win that first carry and PTB quick.

Secoundly our contact in carrying the ball is awful. We lose the contact. Again look back at friday. When we hit the line we don't go thru the line yet Ben flower and co was winning impact with the ball and making those extra yards.

Maybe we just ain't strong enough but the one up rugby Doesbt help.

I remember when Royce got sacked and Rush took over, he dropped Foster and (a very young) Makinson, brought back the much more substantial Ade Gardner and moved Meli from the Centre back to the wing. This was for precisely this reason and it worked.

Swift does return well, makinson has improved some, but its not his strength. The problem is when Quinlan is a complete non-entity, it allows the chaser to concentrate on the others and makes it harder for them.

I think the one up stuff is more to blame. I've seen too much from each player on the good days to think they're not capable. Its just too easy to read and the lads are getting brickwalled.

The one up stuff doesn't help but what else can you do when stuck in your own 20m zone? Sure you can have runners but other than that the ain't much more we can do. That's the reason we kick a lot as we struggle to make meters.

I don't think we are strong enough in contact. Like judder said, we struggle without alex meters and now teams are running at robes to take his running game away and whats thst leave us with?

The young lads ain't physcally developed yet (not their fault as that will come). Look at Greenwood when he has to take a hit up, he's getting smashed to pieces because he's not developed enough yet for week in week out super league. Same goes for Thompson, Richsrds and even Sav some weeks, they just can't win contact.

Add to that flash and Wilkin who are very small for forwards who will never make good meters unless put thru like wilkin last two weeks.

That leaves us with Amor who 90% of fans have said he's struggled and to small this year. Vea will make meters and we really missed him. Mose who doesn't make anywhere near the meters he should for a big 6ft 6in and 23st guy.

We seriously need a prop without a shadow of a doubt hence why we went for raperia, Mullaney, singleton etc.

There's not a lot you can do in your 20, that's true, but the way we make things easy for them the rest of the time with easy to read drives compound this throughout the 80. All you need is a little movement off the ball and you'll put that bit of doubt in their mind to stop them rushing and creaming the driving forward without hesitation.

I think Tasi will be quite good. He'll give us more minutes and, whilst he might not have the massive runs in him that Mose does, he'll perhaps give us more on average and is a very aggressive defender (something we lack).

But yes, we do need another senior prop that can make consistent hard yards. This will stop us flogging Amor as we did last year when he was going well. It will mean that when a front rower is injured or not performing, a youngster can come in and still have plenty of support around him.

We'll not sign another, imo. The emergence of Savelio will be what they consider as a new signing. I think Richards needs some work on, perhaps a stint next year at a good lower level club to stretch his legs a bit, else he'll go the same way as Paul Clough.

Does anyone have any inside info on this Haggarty lad. I don't know anything about him, as he got some promise? Obviously after seeing the success of Walmsley and Hill, you do hope that maybe we could unearth another decent prop.

I agree with what's been said though. Some of the young lads are getting smashed every week. With injuries etc the likes of Richards have had to play more minutes/games instead of easing them in.

I'm looking forward to Tasi coming in, sometimes players suit a club and I think he'll settle in nicely at Saints.

Seen him play a few games at Barrow Raiders, reminded me a bit like Joe Greenwood, charges in very upright. I do remember the barrow fans at work said he was a bit over ambitious and always wanted to play for a top club. Thought he would have had a bench spot by now.

Cheers Judder Man. Maybe we'll see him get on the bench a bit in preseason.