I'm not quoting stats on his time on the field, I'm stating facts. Some games he can't do 10 mins without him looking to the Bench with his hands on his hips or on his knees.

The grand final he lasted 8 mins which is prob a grand final record. Yet some weeks he can do 20 mins no sweat. I think that's just down to atititude and some weeks he just doesn't want to be out there.

I'd say it's more to do with how he uses his energy in the minutes he's on, how much defence he gets through & how our half backs or make shift ones at times use him running onto the ball or just make him lose energy taking flat ball etc. Think it's harsh to say attitude really

Harsh but true.

I'm not worried about Mose's heart. What I'm saying is it is totally unrealistic to expect someone weighing in at 20st+ to have the same workrate as someone who is possibly FIVE STONES lighter. This is why guys occupying the offensive line in American football can barely last four successive plays without gulping down oxygen. It's not that these men are unfit. The NFL has some of the finest fitness coaches in the world and certainly the best facilities. With all the best conditioning, diet, lifestyle etc. in the world, it's almost impossible to squeeze the same workrate out of a 20st lineman as you can from, say, a 16st linebacker (unless he's some kind of genetic freak).

I absolutely agree that Mose's condition at game #1 was unacceptable. Like other "big" South Sea Island forwards (whose love of good food is legendary) returning from an injury which prevents any kind of fitness work until fully healed I do have a certain degree of sympathy. But he let himself down and he couldn't complain when the fans got on his back.

From that point he didn't miss a single game and he worked damned hard to get the weight off. In no language is that the behaviour of a "lazy" player. Lazy players make a half-hearted stab at tackling the weight problems and yet never manage to deal with them in full.

At the end of last season Mose was lean and fit. Just as he is now. If he's sometimes down on his haunches in games then maybe it's because he's lugging close to SEVENTY POUNDS more bodyweight than someone like Amor.

Seriously, if I placed a SEVENTY POUND pack on Kyle Amor's back do you think he'd just carry on as if it were a bag full of feathers?

This isn't rocket science guys. It's ABC stuff. I find it curious that whenever Mose starts breathing heavy or doesn't carry the ball on a set of six the FIRST RESPONSE always is "he's lazy" when there are other explanations which are not just more plausible but far more fair on a guy who has never missed a game and never been dropped.

Oh, and when it comes to protecting his teammates from the opposition's roughest, dirtiest players he's ALWAYS FIRST MAN TO STAND UP.

I've typed out several responses and deleted them, because I figured, what is the point with getting into this discussion? You have an opinion, so do I, and they're different. You won't change my mind.

It's statements such as the above which make me wonder how genuine you're being and whether your antipathy toward Mose is based on facts, observable evidence and reason or plain old prejudice.

I find it damning that nothing I can say will [i"change your mind"[/i - even though your initial claim that Mose's figures on hit ups, tackles, yards etc. would be substantially below Walmsley's and Amor's has been proven wide of the mark. (It begs the question why are you discussing Mose's attitude as though it's a matter which is up for debate when your mind is already fixed??)

For God's sake man, you're not reading War & Peace. DO YOU that courtesy. As for judging your intelligence - I can only make a call on what you write. Or don't.

I'm not in the business of flattery. But I'm not so much of an ass that I won't give credit when it is due, either.

By the way, if you think I'm being awkward in here you should trade places with some of my previous employers.

It's not a successful day unless I see that blood vessel near the eye pulsing away like a neutron star.

Sorry Mugwump, I can't see what's to gain from continuing this debate with you apart from us repeating ourselves and dragging it on and on. You're not going to change your opinion and neither am I.

What we both have in common is that we both want to see Masoe play well. Let's hope he does a job on Leeds.

It seems it's o.k. for Mugwump to suggest folks should agree to disagree, however when anyone else suggests that, the argument must be continued ad nauseam

You just wouldn't let it lie