I dont think halves is that big a problem. I think its selecting the right player in the right position
For example Wheeler and Gaskell are both naturally gifted half backs, but Saints have insisted on playing Hohoia and Lomax in the halves when arguably both would be better utilised as fullbacks. (obviously not both at the same time)

Wello has been a revelation this year, but we need to be looking to move Lomax into that position or possibly Swift.

Hohoia would for me be a utility bench player.

Pack is fine, it is big tough and mobile. Next year should be even better with Manu causing havoc out wide

Threequarters. Meli has been our best back and Makinson is looking like developing into a solid pro. Gardner was strong before his injury, but you have to ask if its getting to the stage were both Meli and Gardner need putting out to pasture to let the young guns get their chance. Foster certainly needs bringing back from the wilderness as he is a points machine who showed at Hull that he is no flash in the pan.
Im hopeful Jordan Turner will add some pace and power into the centres next year. Alongside a further year of development for Josh Jones.

The main thing though is getting a top class coach to mold what is a group of very talented players into a trophy winning team. Brown for me is capable of that, however i am sceptical he will ever coach a St.Helens team due to his talents being in great demand down under.

What we also have to do is look at the opposition and what the next couple of years look like yielding for them.

Wigan look like a rapidly fading force. Players are leaving on mass, to be replaced by journeymen pros. For me this year was their last great chance to get some decent silver before spending a few years trying to rebuild. Like Saints have the junior talent to remain a top 5 team though.

Wire will be up there for a year or two until their pensioners all start to retire, then they could hit the buffers bigtime. Simon Moran will then need to start splashing the cash, something they are well capable of doing however.

Leeds. Still a big game team, and the nucleus of the side Sinfield, Burrows & Mcguire still have a few years left in them. Will always challenge as they are the only real genuine contender from Yorkshire, so know that if they are short in a position they just have to pick off talent from any of their weak west Yorkshire rivals.

Hull looking to make a push next season with some big signings. Suffer though from being in Hull, which makes recruitment harder due to the isolated nature of their city.

The rest are easy beats.

He's not got a rugby brain and speed of thought to play in the halves. IMO he's the best fullback at the club.

A trophy

Selecting the right stand-off is a problem because we are inundated with them. But we have no obvious scrum half. I mean, sure, Lomax can wear the shirt, put the ball in the scrum and collect it at first receiver. But [itactically[/i and in terms of leadership he is very much lacking. I don't blame the kid. He's just being asked to assume a role his skills aren't suited to.



I like the idea of Swift. But he's still yet to prove himself and at least 18 months from being physically ready.



I agree. Just hope Manu can stay fit at his age.



Foster has been very shabbily treated. Makinson needs to flesh out.

I also think Wilkin needs to bulk up significantly. He's far too light for the game today.

I think Swift is a long way off as he is splitting his time between Saints and working for an aviation company as an apprentice.

and he'll stay along way off if we dont play him

say no more - Wheeler and Gaskell

That would be the wire team whose youngsters have won the Valvoline Grand Final today?

One swallow does not a summer make.

How are the other wire junior sides doing?
Its not good enough to have one good season. Wakefield had that the other year when they won the comp, but it didnt translate into a team of superstar juniors coming through

You need to continuously develop youngsters year after year to a high standard. Something Saints and Wigan have been doing for a long time.

By doing this you may start to see decent quality youngsters come through from within the club.

I'm of the opinion that while swift has the talent to be a good pro, he will possibly make the decision to complete his apprenticeship, then play RL on a part time basis in the championship.
The money he will be able to earn as an aviation engineer will be on a par with that of most full time RL players, but with the advantage of having a career that lasts more than a decade.

Given the extraordinarily limited pool of talent swimming about SL it doesn't take wholesale changes to turn an average team into a good one. One or two excellent signings can be the difference between winning SL and going out in the first round.

Consequently I think the perceived wisdom of making a big deal out of championship-winning academy sides is faulty. Saints fans should know this better than anyone. It wasn't all that long ago that we were assured all kinds of riches on the backs of prophesised mind-boggling talent such as Tyrer, Foster, Eastmond, Gaskell, Wheeler, Lomax, Frodsham etc. As things stand currently not one of those players has achieved a fraction of the kinds of promises McManus and company provided. Not one. Indeed, many have either left the club or are still in the wilderness. Granted, we all bought into the hype and thus must share some of the blame. But the fact remains that having a highly-placed academy set-up (in terms of league position) in no way guarantees first team success.

The achievements of kids around the age of 18 are no substitute for achievements aged 28 and there are all manner of pitfalls inbetween. A club could win the academy championship three years running and not produce a single genuine SL star whilst another with no academy pedigree could produce two late-developing teenagers who suddenly flesh out to become the next Keiron Cunningham and Sean Long - a platform for a decade of success.

IMO, too much significance is attached to possessing a so-called "great" academy when it's INDIVIDUALS who count. One genuinely talented young english halfback coming out of a modestly successful academy is worth a dozen academy grand final winners. I mean, look at Wigan - a team which is universally praised for its junior development program. If perceived wisdom held any truth Wigan should be miles ahead of just about everyone insofar as SL success is concerned.

If it is of any consolation St Helens are one of the three/two biggest and best club teams in world rugby. Teams like Wire/Bradford will come and go but saints will always be there. And this is from someone who was routing for a wire win!

What are we lacking? A coach and a half. Preferably both, but either would do. Discussion over, thread closed. Thank you all for attending.

Hard to disagree with much of this. I think Foster still has a bit of a way to go to be a Saints player again and Meli needs to be a key player still though.

Our major issue is of course the halves, and we may look lacking if you just compare Lomax's and Hohaia's headless rabbit in headlights bouncing off the line to what Briers did tonight, or to what Sinfield and Maguire will probably do next week, but frankly compared to what most of the rest of the league has to call on we're looking pretty good at #6 and #7 frankly. Those players aren't going to be around forever, and in a league where Smith and Myler are probably the 2 best young halves around then give us a year or 2's decent coaching of Wheeler, Gaskell and Lomax and we'll be a side that's going to win lots of silverware. Our next coach is key.