| FORUMS > St. Helens > Saints financial woes |
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| Quote: roader "How much would the rebranding of the club have cost? and now it's being changed again. Why didn't they wait till the first season in the new stadium.'"
It's not a rebrand as such this time, all they've done is change the Saints RL in the badge to St. Helens RFC |
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| Quote: bewareshadows "Do we have too many highly paid hangers on? What real benefits do these paid people bring to the club? '"
I doubt that's the case given the corporate backgrounds of several members of the management team. I'm not saying there aren't areas that could be improved but I'm sure they look very closely at labour costs because I've yet to work in an organisation that doesn't. |
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| Quote: bewareshadows "What gets me is the wages?
Who are we paying these ever increasing wages too?
It's not the players, they are capped. We've paid pretty much the same on players for the last 10 years, the league does not allow for anything else.
Do we have too many highly paid hangers on? What real benefits do these paid people bring to the club?
Everyone is saying we need to increase revenue, but there is actually an alternate method, which is to cut costs. £1.6 million on players, our sky revenue and gate receipts even now cover that. So it's not the players weighing us down.'"
Well, its good to see that the Directors do not take any salary or other benefits.
However, 93 players and coaching staff does seem OTT to me as does 62 "other staff" for a business with a turnover of less than £5M.
Looking at wages, we have 34 tier one and two players and assuming that the SC is used to its full £1.65M thats an average of £48,250 p.a. which gives the remaining staff an average £15K p.a.
so it doesn't look like the club is overpaying people or "hangers on" it just looks like we have too many of rthe buggers! |
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I'd assume the 62 'other staff' would include the likes of stewards and turnstyle staff.
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| Quote: Eastbourne Warrior "I'd assume the 62 'other staff' would include the likes of stewards and turnstyle staff.'"
I'm not sure whether they are on formal employee contracts or just classed as casual staff but shop staff would be included. |
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| Quote: saint at wire "Well, its good to see that the Directors do not take any salary or other benefits.
However, 93 players and coaching staff does seem OTT to me as does 62 "other staff" for a business with a turnover of less than £5M.
Looking at wages, we have 34 tier one and two players and assuming that the SC is used to its full £1.65M thats an average of £48,250 p.a. which gives the remaining staff an average £15K p.a.
so it doesn't look like the club is overpaying people or "hangers on" it just looks like we have too many of rthe buggers!'"
You have to be careful about speculating upon salaries and personnel ratios in businesses that are different to ones you've experienced. I've worked in ones where there's 300 employees for a £250m business and ones that have employed nearly 2,000 employees for a business that generated a fraction of that amount i.e. approx £14m. Without knowing the exact ins and outs we get into dangerous generalisations and speculation which serve no real purpose without genuine insight. |
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Much better news at Wigan.
Accounts for the last financial year (ending Nov 2010 - i.e. the 2010 season) has recently been filed by the club with Companies House.
Main highlights:
- Operating profit of £141k against an operating loss of £459k from 2009
- Turnover up 15% to £5.5m against £4.8m the previous year
- Stadium rental costs of £197k against £190k the previous year. Notes to the accounts confirm that "rates determined by match revenues" and we have a "25 year renewable lease"
- The £2m loan that was assumed to be owed to Whelan was paid on 3 December.
- Net debt position reduced from £1.63m to £1.29m
Overall some very encouraging results and will probably only get better this year.
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| Quote: Rogues Gallery "Much better news at Wigan.
Accounts for the last financial year (ending Nov 2010 - i.e. the 2010 season) has recently been filed by the club with Companies House.
Main highlights
Still in debt though Rogues. 
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| Quote: Rogues Gallery "Much better news at Wigan.'"
Who cares. |
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| Quote: Rogues Gallery "Wigan.
'"
Nobody outside Wigan gives a $h1t ...apart from you I suppose being as you live in St Helens  |
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| Quote: Rogues Gallery "Much better news at Wigan.
Accounts for the last financial year (ending Nov 2010 - i.e. the 2010 season) has recently been filed by the club with Companies House.
Main highlights
Well done indeed Rougues. Quite how the club managed to increase revenues by 14% but actually reduce overall costs but increasing salaries is quite a feat, however some of it is down to transfer fees being over £225,000 less than in 2009
What you don't say isClub is still insolvent to the tune of £2.69M in spite of the £572,000 benefit of a 2010 property revaluation.
There is no clue how the £2M loan was repaid e.g. another loan from the parent co LENAGAN INVESTMENTS LIMITED or Barclays bank loan. In other words what is likely in the absence of a share issue is that one debt been replaced by another.
The parent company to which Wigan owed £1.08M is a non trading insolvent company supported by its shareholders (Simon and Ann Lenagan).
Large liabilities for deferred income and accrued expenses amount to over £1.5M well up from previous years.
The club is still under investigation by the Inland Revenue (HMRC) for PAYE/NI issues arising out of payments including expenses to employees. No agreement has been reached with HMRC.
(Hypothetically, if at some stage HMRC sucessfully argue and rule that some expenses payments are in fact to be treated as salary then this may possibly have SC implications for the club and possibly other clubs (having said that, there is no such note about HMRC in Saints 2010 accounts) - of course no-one including myself is accusing Wigan or anyone connected to them of any sort of wrongdoing). This is also a big issue in RU[/list
In the end, Wigan's accounts are not much better than those of Saints apart from the fact that for the first time in a very long time Wigan has made a small - but nonetheless positive - profit after tax of £38K.
Against that, we will own a new shiney stadium. I know which I'd rather have? 
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| Quote: saint at wire "Well done indeed Rougues. Quite how the club managed to increase revenues by 14% but actually reduce overall costs but increasing salaries is quite a feat, however some of it is down to transfer fees being over £225,000 less than in 2009
What you don't say isClub is still insolvent to the tune of £2.69M in spite of the £572,000 benefit of a 2010 property revaluation.
There is no clue how the £2M loan was repaid e.g. another loan from the parent co LENAGAN INVESTMENTS LIMITED or Barclays bank loan. In other words what is likely in the absence of a share issue is that one debt been replaced by another.
The parent company to which Wigan owed £1.08M is a non trading insolvent company supported by its shareholders (Simon and Ann Lenagan).
Large liabilities for deferred income and accrued expenses amount to over £1.5M well up from previous years.
The club is still under investigation by the Inland Revenue (HMRC) for PAYE/NI issues arising out of payments including expenses to employees. No agreement has been reached with HMRC.
(Hypothetically, if at some stage HMRC sucessfully argue and rule that some expenses payments are in fact to be treated as salary then this may possibly have SC implications for the club and possibly other clubs (having said that, there is no such note about HMRC in Saints 2010 accounts) - of course no-one including myself is accusing Wigan or anyone connected to them of any sort of wrongdoing). This is also a big issue in RU[/list
In the end, Wigan's accounts are not much better than those of Saints apart from the fact that for the first time in a very long time Wigan has made a small - but nonetheless positive - profit after tax of £38K.
Against that, we will own a new shiney stadium. I know which I'd rather have? ![]()
Awww youve gone and urinated all over the non trolls parade.
I like you 
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| Quote: Don Brennan "Awww youve gone and urinated all over the non trolls parade.
I like you ![]()
I hope it's been posted on the pies board
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| Quote: other staff "saint at wire wrote
Quote: other staff "You have to be careful about speculating upon salaries and personnel ratios in businesses that are different to ones you've experienced. I've worked in ones where there's 300 employees for a £250m business and ones that have employed nearly 2,000 employees for a business that generated a fraction of that amount i.e. approx £14m. Without knowing the exact ins and outs we get into dangerous generalisations and speculation which serve no real purpose without genuine insight.'"
Hmmm that business with the c£14M turnover; even if all its income went to salaries they would average £7,000 p.a. which seems extremely low?
I do take on board some of what you say but there are some very strange stats when looking at some of our peers e.g.:
Number of employees - Saints 155 (Players and Coaching Staff - 93, Other Staff -62), Wigan - 78 (Players and Coaching Staff - 54, Other Staff - 24).
Why do we have nearly double the number of total staff and 72% more coaches and players to Wigan anyone?
Wigan Turnover £5.49M, Salaries £3.42M
Saints Turnover £4.83M, Salaries £3.81M
Don't get me wrong, in spite of wigan's small profit in 2010 their balance sheet is in similar shape to ours. The difference is that we will have a real revenue generating state of the art stadium next year!
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Wigan and Warrington have acknowledged the HMRC investigation.
Have Saints?
If not why not?
They are in the frame (as indeed are most RL clubs)
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