The Wigan Envy-O-Meter.

Quote: Phuzzy "As to the rest of the post; impressive stats for Walmsley indeed. I've no issue with him being an excellent player and an exciting prospect but, as you say yourself, it's not always possible to make direct comparisons in that way. The 2 packs play completely different roles and, as is quite plain from those stats, the Wigan props all have a very similar workrate in line with that. Our metres come from the back row and centres more than prop and we are able to do that because of the very aggressive way the front row play and the manner in which they lay the platform. There's more than one way to skin a cat SLS! It's interesting that the main area he falls short of the Wigan props (and by that I mean ALL the Wigan props including Crosby!) is in defence. Telling, no? It's this blitzkrieg style of defence that we're referring to when we comment on the aggressiveness of the Wigan pack and, let's be honest, even the stats don't tell the whole story here! Do you have the percentage missed tackles for them to hand? I think I can say without contradiction that if Walmsley played in the Wigan pack he'd be expected to up his defensive workrate considerably and not only that, be expected to hit harder and more consistently. I'm sure you know as well as I do what that extra workload would do to his metres made, tackle bust and carries per game stats. Like I say, I have no problem with you championing Walmsley; I agree with much of what you say about him. But to say he's better than Flower, Taylor and Clubb is just opinion. Only if he played for the same team in the same systems and then, and only then, boast better stats would that cease to be the case.

As for Masoe, you're still wrong. Pettybourne is capable of playing long minutes. Masoe isn't. It's no secret that that is Wane's way. Pettybourne wouldn't have played half as much as he did anyway were it not for Taylor falling out of favour so even if we accept that Masoe and Pettybourne are like for like in terms of the type of prop they are (which isn't necessarily the case) to suggest Masoe would 'make the Wigan 17 every time' is simply not true. Given the option, Wane would go for the workhorse type of prop over the Masoes of this world without exception.

It's hard not to turn this into a 'our's are better than your's' type debate which I've no real desire to do. I agree that Amor would be a shoe in and I'm even happy to concede Walmsley is there or thereabouts. For the sake of argument let's say he would at the very least be in contention and get plenty games. However that is a long way from what you were implying in that post. Masoe is not a Wigan prop, full stop. That's not based on some sort of misguided club loyalty but on seeing Wigan week in, week out and being a season ticket holder for over 20 years. Trust my judgement on that or not; it's up to you.

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The issue that I have with your argument is that it is all based on the sequitur that Wigan's method is better. Nothing backs that premise up other than your own bias. Wigan finished below St Helens, despite an amazing array of injuries. Wigan lost the Grand Final to St Helens, despite them having no halves on the field. There is no evidence to use that suggests Wigan's gameplan is superior to that of St Helens and so it should not be used as an immediate starting point.

You asserted adamantly that Walmsley has been less of a player than Flower and Taylor and only the equal of Crosby and Clubb. Your statement. The reason for my first paragraph that you have taken issue with is because anybody that has watched them all play in a balanced manner could never come to that conclusion whilst Walmsley has been so superior all year. Clubb, for instance averages two tackles more a game, 37m less, 4 carries fewer and 1 less tackle bust. Yet, you are sure Walmsley has only been his equal ? It is a nonsense. Crosby, another that Walmsley has only equalled in your view, has 35 fewer metres, 3 fewer carries, two less busts a game and 3 more tackles. On average every game.

So, no. They clearly haven't been Walmsley's equal. You cannot assert that an average of between 2-10 more tackles a game but a third fewer metres equals 'better'. In particular, because most of those extra tackles will be second and third man in, due to Wigan's obsessive slowing down tactics. If we use the opposite sequitur than your own and presume that Saints' method of play is better, how would Clubb, Crosby, Flower and Taylor compare with Walmsley ? They'd need to up their offensive work rate, bust more tackles, win the collision more often and make significantly more metres. Since they are all much smaller than Walmsley, how likely is that to happen ? I like Taylor, he's a fine prop stifled in Wigan's system but the other three are the definition of average.

You're willing to acknowledge that Amor is a 'shoe in', yet I don't understand your basis. He averages a metre less than Walmsley per game despite two more carries, two fewer busted tackles and only two tackles more a game. He averages the same amount of tackles as Tony Clubb does and yet, using the eyeball test, you'd have to be insane to consider Clubb the equal of Amor. I can only conclude that Wigan's obsession with gang tackling and the distorted effect this has on your player's defensive stats has blinded your average Wiganer to a prop's main role, which is providing territory.

Masoe I haven't really argued. I can see why he wouldn't fit Wane's system. However, it would be wrong to not acknowledge that in Saints' system, he has been an enormous part of why St Helens have beaten Wigan on the last two occasions. Without McIlorum, Wigan have no answer to Masoe as Crosby and co found out lying flat on their backsides after running at him in the opening set at Old Trafford.

I guess ultimately I find it astonishing that anybody would argue that another prop is better than another despite clearly being inferior in every facet except being third man in to a finished tackle 5+ more times a game. That just buttresses the said player's stats for me. This theory is emblematic of how Wigan's emphasis on defence has blinded British RL to a big extent.