Yes you outplayed us in one game but using injuries and a red card as an excuse is poor form. Injuries happen to every team and we had our own fair share of them at the time of the game. It might not have been as many as you, but we still had our own. We just got on with it and beat you. As for saying the other game you had one prop, no you had two, but one stupidly got him self sent off.

We may have some half backs next time we play Wigan, and a fullback.

Maybe even a loose forward. Just think what we will be able to do then??

You want to talk about the players who had missing at the DW, but you fail to mention that on Good Friday we had our best prop missing and then for the Grand Final:

We were missing Walsh, Wilkin and Lomax for 80 mins
We were missing the above plus Hohaia for 79 mins
We had no halfbacks for 79 mins
We had a prop at centre
We had a 2nd rower at scrum half
We had a 34 year old full back at stand off
We were down to 16 men

Don't come on here bleating about me "oversimplifying" things if you are then going to be so blinkered.

Ps apart from McIlorum, Green and Farrell, who were the other 6 first choice players missing at DW? Bearing in mind you'd only signed him the week before, I can only assume you're not counting Joel Tomkins.

Why do you think it's poor form? I wasn't making excuses for losing the games, jut pointing out that a comparison of the 2 packs using these games as a yardstick was ultimately flawed in much the same way as comparing Wigan's halves to your GF halves would be a flawed way to compare the relative strengths of our 2015 pairings. Do you think I'm wrong in this? If so, why?

I think your halves next season will be the stronger pairing. Full back depends on a number of factors but is possibly even. Who will be playing at LF? I'm guessing we'll still have the edge there with O'Loughlin, injuries notwithstandng of course!

Fair enough, apologies for the "bleating" comment.

I assumed we had moved on from discussing just the packs when you referred to 9 first choice players missing at the DW.

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion...personally I'm not quite sure how (logically) you could say Wigan were the best team last season, when Saints topped the league for 20 out of 27 rounds, won the LLS and went on to win the GF but each to their own.

It's as if Wiganers don't actually watch the game. A comparison of packs is almost futile as both sides play different games. Wigan's forwards play on the edge. The vast majority of their metres comes through their second rowers. Their props offer little. I'm sure their 'props' in the Grand Final contributed similar to what Luke Thompson offered on his own for St Helens. Clubb, Flower and Crosby against Amor, Masoe and Walmsley ?!?! Ats not even a contest. Saints bullied Wigan's front row and did it twice last year. Masoe, in particular, set the tone massively in both games. A big part of why Wigan are obsessively stock piling props is, IMO, entirely because Wane knows to beat Saints, their props are going to need to compete. Can't rely on Liam Farrell and your threequarters for all your go forward.

It is remiss of any Wiganer to seriously tell Saints fans that Wigan's pack is 'better'. Kyle Amor is the best prop on both sides by an absolute mile. In fact, Masoe, Walmsley and Amor would all make Wigan's 17 every time.

Wigan have an excellent structure, are excellent in the backs with the exception of Gelling, and supremely aggressive defence. Player for player, they aren't all that at all. O'Loughlin is the real star of both sides.

No worries and cheers for the apology!

Yeah, I could have worded that better. I meant by implication that we had a lot of players out including first choice pack members. If memory serves I think we were missing both first choice hookers in McIlorum and Williams, Farrell, Flower and Pettybourne out plus Tomkins still wasn't fit after re-signing. In addition it was the first game back after injury for Bateman, O'Loughlin and possibly Crosby (although I'm not 100% on that one). I can't remember if there were any others to be honest but I think it does show that the pack wasn't even close to full strength. Just the losses of Flower, McIllorum and Farrell alone seriously weakens the pack and, in particular, it's hard to overestimate the loss of McIlorum when going up against a team with Roby in it. IIRC we had that many missing we actually debuted Doran at hooker in that game wearing squad number 42!!

I agree that the two packs play in a completely different way, and therefore, in some aspects, direct comparison is futile. The way we use O'Loughlin as a 3rd pivot is probably the biggest single illustration of the different approaches. However the original point (from Pete I think) was that the Saints pack, as a rule, was bossed by the more aggressive Wigan pack (we'll add the caveat 'when both were at full strength' lol) and I'm not sure how that is affected by direct comparisons, especially man for man. You mention that the Wigan pack plays at the edge and that is certainly true. It's that aspect that the Saints pack seems to struggle with, certainly in recent seasons. That's something that was highlighted time and again on this very board prior to the last 2 games between us; when the going got tough, the Saints pack seemed unable to step up. Nathan Brown intimated as much himself after the Good Friday defeat. Whether there has been a sea change in attitude since these last two games remains to be seen as, as I've been at pains to point out, the 2 packs haven't met head on and close to full strength in them but even so, there does seem to have been a change in attitude. I think that was evident from the opening couple minutes of the GF! It's a shame, in some respects, that Flower lost the plot as it would have been interesting to see how that developed. Anyoo, that's history but I'm sure we'll find out over the coming season!

As to your other point, I think that's coming from a Saints perspective. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, and I doubt you'll get many dissenters on this board, but from a Wigan point of view only Amor would definitely make the Wigan 17. I like Walmsley but he isn't, at this stage of his career, as good as Flower or Taylor and, on last years form, no better than Clubb. Masoe is not a Wigan prop full stop. We've been there with Feka and it's not Wane's, or Maguire's before him, style! Now you could argue that Masoe is better than Feka and I certainly wouldn't put up an argument but the fact is a better Feka is still a Feka and that's not what Wane is looking for. Back to Walmsley for a second; he has all the attributes to go on and be a top class prop and I hope he fulfils his undoubted potential. But to project this discussion into 2015; We've added Mossop to replace Taylor and added Patrick and Tautai, both of whom are very much in the Wane mould, which means Walmesley would have to get in the team above Mossop, Flower, Tautai, Patrick, Clubb and Crosby (who was as good for us last season as Walmsley was for you). I've not included Pettybourne (as Walmsley is better) or Greenwood and Sutton (as they are relatively unproven at this level despite being excellent prospects). You might think he'd get in ahead of some of those, and you might be right...who knows? However to say ''would make the Wigan 17 every time' is stretching it a bit! You're basically saying that Wane would only choose one of his current props if he could have the Saints props instead. That's clearly not very likely!

I understand what your saying, but Masoe would get into the side every time Pettybourne is in the Wigan side, Masoe is an ongoing argument on here, similar to Pettybourne on the Wigan site, but Masoes best is ahead of Pettybournes imo. As for Walmsley, I'd of had Taylor ahead of him, but I'm not sure about the rest.

Speaking more generally about Wigans signings, I don't actually think your signings improve your absolute best, and only Tautai (whom I'm not convinced by) having the potential to bring an extra dimension. What they do bring is rotation without any depreciable drop in performance. I maintain that next year will be the same as this year, in that Saints absolute best is better than Wigans, but Wigan will be closer to that level far more often (all imo), with the possible exception of Warrington though, on paper Saints and Wigan are in a league of their own next year...

Phuzzy, I'll tread carefully as you seem like you genuinely believe what you're writing and are at least trying but honestly, how much rugby do you watch ? I mean, other than Wigan, in a genuinely unbalanced manner - how much do you watch ? Because seriously, anybody telling me that Walmsley is not as good as Taylor and Flower and is on a par with Clubb can't watch a lot.

A prop's job on a rugby league field is metres, primarily. Their job is to provide the territory and go forward for their backs to play. The best are able to offer that go forward with a real work rate in defence on top, such as James Graham for example. Now, since a prop's role is so clear, it can be measured by statistics. Here are some for you to consider (and seriously, consider them because they make your theory sound ridiculous).

So, Walmsley is not as good as Taylor or Flower. Here are the average metres made per game by all three -

Walmsley - 108m.
Flower - 68m.
Taylor - 79m

Clubb, who Walmsley is on a par with averages 71m a game.

Here are how many carries a game that these props average. How often they're prepared to cart it up -

Walmsley - 13.
Flower - 10.
Taylor - 10.
Clubb - 9.

Here are the tackles they average. Their defensive work rate per game -

Walmsley - 17.
Flower - 26.
Taylor - 20.
Clubb - 19.

Tackle busts. How many times a game do these guys put themselves in position to win the floor, get quick ball for their backs.

Walmsley - 2.7.
Flower - 1.4.
Taylor - 2.3.
Clubb - 1.7.

Basically, Walmsley makes more metres, offers more carries and wins the floor more often whilst his Wigan counterparts offer more tackles in a game of which many will be second and third man in, in line with Wane's emphasis on controlling the ruck.

With this in mind, Phuzzy, are you still seriously going to try and tell me that Walmsley is not as good as any of these props ? Seriously ?

Here are Crosby's, who's another you assert was Walmsley's equal last season.

Metres per game - 73m.
Carries - 10.
Tackles - 20.
Busts - 0.7.