To be fair thats what i thought.

Saints have lost some experience over the past 2 years but there are still guys around like the ones you mention there aswell as players like Graham and Wilkin to lead the way. We didn't really have that and thats why our youngsters ending up struggling so badly.

I'm looking forward to watching how the likes of Wheeler and Lomax come on this season.

One minute your slagging us off as a team of pensioners, and now your questioning wether we have the old heads in the team to look after the youngsters? Make your mind up.

Like the posters above say, there are still plenty of experienced players in the squad to help the younger players on. I just wonder wether some of them are good enough, the likes of Ashurst and Dixon just looked solid last year, nothing more. We should get a better idea this year though, it is important that the young players do turn out good enough, because we seem very reluctant to sign players.

at some point i would give lomax a go at fullback and maybe push wellens into the centres

Wigan's problem was that they were not willing to wait for players to develop and have paid the price, it is about building a team and that takes time, I also believe that you have to lose in order to learn which is what has happened at Leeds. I hope Saints develop their youth and build for the future as i do all super league clubs so that we can have a well built national side.

i.e Briscoe, Hodgson, Robinson, Wild, Hargreaves to name but a few?

I didn't explain myself very well did I? I wasn't just looking at this coming season.

What I was alluding to was that in 2003 / 2004 Wigan brought through a crop of youngsters that many people thought would take them to the next level.

Thy had won the Challenge Cup in 2002, reached the Grand Final in 2003, and in 2004 the Challenge Cup final and also got to the final eliminator play off. So you would think with that young talent there would be a reasonable chance that they would push on.

However, about the same time Wigan lost a lot of experienced players and leaders in Farrell, Lam, O'Connor, Craig Smith and Mick Cassidy etc. Some of the young players started to struggle.

At the end of this year Saints will lose Cunningham, Gidley maybe Fozzard and some are already calling for Wellens to be replaced.

There is a distinct similarity the Wigan scenario I talked about above. Who in that 24 to 27 year old bracket of Saints current players stands out as a "leader"? I don't see one, maybe Wilkin but he had a poor season in 2009.

As for Mr Messey comment about Briscoe, Hodgson, Robinson, Wild, Hargreaves to name but a few?

IMO Briscoe apart none of those players would get into the current Wigan team

You think Deacon is currently a better player than Robinson?

Wild would get in the Wigan 17 for sure.

you dont see James Graham as a "leader"?

or....
Soliola, an experienced international
Roby, an experienced international
Wilkin - hit and miss, but I expect a big season, never the less he is an experienced international
Puletua - an experienced international

or Wellens who will still be around for a couple of years yet?

and to a lesser extent: Fa'asavalu, Gardner, Pryce are all experienced internationals - Flannery is an experience state of origin veteran.

In 2011, Eastmond will have a full season under his belt, plus an international series Down Under....i.e. possibly have around about 10 England caps.

We don't need a player of Robinsons type though. He's a running halfback with very few kicking or passing skills and we have guys in Tomkins and Leuluai who do a similar job but ten times better.

We needed a scrum half that in tight games could get us down the oppositions end abit better with some good kicking and hopefully Deacon will bring that.

As for Wild I like him but didn't think he had his best season last year. He's a player i'd still have at Wigan though if it were possible but then we have so many good kids coming through in that position he could hold them back.

You must really not rate Phelps.

He'll probably be gone at the end of the year, and I still think Briscoe is the best British fullback in Superleague at present.

Worrying thought, isn't it?

Would take Richard Owen and keep Jonny Lomax before I went for Briscoe. Mr Average.

Owen would be up there but he has had a lot of injury problems. Lomax has a long way to go yet as was shown in last years reserve final in which Vievers was by far the better of the two fullbacks, but Joshs lack of pace is a major concern of mine.

I would agree long term that Owen and Lomax may be better bets, but this is how the discussion started wasn't it?