Props pretty even. You've got to laugh.

Crosby, who managed 20 odd metres in the biggest game of the season and spent half the time on his after Masoe had nailed him, Flower who so enraged at Masoe's early aggression committed an offence that should have seen him locked up and Clubb, who managed 60 odd metres (half that of Thompson and Richards). Indeed, Wigan's props are a scary proposition

Placing a lot of hope in a Huddersfield bencher and an import from Wakefield are Wigan. Mossop has never been up to anything anyway, he wouldn't make the Saints 17.

Honestly don't care. Sometimes it's necessary to provide a balance to the amount of hyperbole that comes out of Wiganer's mouths. They're in a world of their own with their views most of the time.

Every Wiganer is awesome. Everyone else is . That pretty much sums them up.

I've always seen Crosby as a bigger version of Clough. It's no slight but just nothing to put the fear of God in me; my impression may be coloured as my outstanding memory of him is Masoe running over the top of him (the one and only time it happened!)

I think our back row options are underrated - admittedly Wilkin is marmite amongst Saints fans let alone anyone else, but LMS is judged on his form in the front row, despite putting some fantastic performances in the back row which can hopefully be more consistent now he's moved "permanently", Vea comes with virtually no rep but should fill Manus hole very well, and Thompson could be one of the best in the country if he continues his development of last season. were lacking the depth of last season, but we should be just as good as the pack that got us through the playoffs, which is a scary thought!

I think Wigan and Saints are going to be the team to beat next year, and there's not a lot to choose between the two imo

Go and watch the game at the Dave Whelan stadium between us earlier in the season. Crosby spent more time on his than he did stood up trying to tackle Masoe. Overrated lard and if he played for us, they wouldn't rate in the slightest. Since he plays for them, he's obviously AWESOME.

If you read the posts on this thread from those of us who support Wigan I don't know how you come to that conclusion. I have been respectful of Saints as have the others and absolutely no-one is writing them off.

Strangely, if you care to look back at the posts on here after the Easter derby I was one who said that Saints shouldn't be written off just as most of their own fans, maybe even yourself, were doing.

I understand that most teams have their share of swivel eyed loons, but I generally find on here that debate is considered and respectful.

I'm looking forward to seeing how Wilkin gets on this season, given that he should be spending all of his game time in the back row (assuming he isn't displaced by LMS, Thompson and Vea, that is). I know that not everyone agrees with me, but I think we've forgotten how effective he can be in the second row.

You're all respectful of Saints and aren't writing us off ?

Well, thanks for your humility. It's not like St Helens are the second most successful RL club in British history and the current champions and league leaders within the competition now, is it ? I offer my eternal thanks and appreciation that you're so respectful of such a club and are still giving us a chance this season.

Genuine question, have you ever heard yourselves or read back some of the crap you lot post ? You're all ing insane.

Props are 'pretty even' but Wigan are comfortably better in the back row and well ahead in the backs although you're humble enough to acknowledge that Saints' halves look good 'on paper'. Crackpots, the lot of you. It's not like Saints finished above you, won two of the three meetings last year and were crowned champions despite missing our entire playmaking contingent as well as our best prop for most of the season.

Here's the truth.

Bowen is woeful and wouldn't get in the Saints side either over Lomax or Wellens (even at his age). Your wingers are superb. Gelling is crap. Sarginson full of potential but lots to learn. Percival is the best centre on either team. Your halves aren't fit to be mentioned in the same breath as St Helens'. Your props have it all to prove. You rely astronomically on McIlorum. Your back row is good. Farrell top class and O'Loughlin the best player in the comp. Joel Tomkins has shown NOTHING to put him on the pedestal you lot do.

That's about it. You'll be up there again and it'll be a real tussle between us as both sides are very evenly matched. Wigan will have to change their game for me this year to beat Saints. Can't keep playing on the edges and expect to beat Saints. At some point you'll have to take us on up front.

Add to that that our two halfbacks are pedestrian!! Williams is quicker than most SL halfbacks and certainly than Walsh or Burns. Add to that we have the fastest halfback in Superleague just waiting his chance (which he will get this season). Hampshire is the fastest player at Wigan. At 17 he finished 5th in the Super League fastest man comp. Pace is not a problem at Wigan.

I remember him telling us that we would win nothing with Smith and Green at half back.

IMO the best half backs this season are at Catalan, and if they can sort their away form out they will be pushing hard for a top four spot.

To be fair, a big Paul Clough would be a top prop!

However much we hope it for, those buggers won't go away. Their pack will be pretty much as good as it has been and we've far from had things our own way against them lately.

You may take umbrage at them constantly bigging up their own players, but swinging things the other way is like putting chum in the water for Rogues and his gang of superpies to come on fill our board with their opinions, which no one really wants.

More because I can't be bothered going into real detail on here as it simply isn't worth it. Not for a group of supporters who label Gildart, who hasn't even played a SL game yet, as the best young centre in the comp (oh, how we laughed). Even here, we've got another of your daft lot ranting about how fast Hampshire is. Another that's proven all. If I wanted pace, I'd sign Kevin Penny. Means nothing.

Any group of supporters that truly try and tell everyone that Gelling is a good rugby player quite evidently aren't to be taken seriously.

A group - show me! I think it was one person

You mentioned the pedestrian Wigan halves, I just corrected you.

Gelling IS a better centre than Turner or Jones. I do like Percival and mentioned him three or four years back as one to watch.

Definition of pedestrian: lacking inspiration or excitement; dull.

Not sure what you're going on about but it's cool. You keep going,

Gelling is absolutely crap. Jordan Turner was a good enough rugby player to switch to first receiver mid season and lead his team to a Grand Final victory. Should Wigan EVER use Gelling at first receiver, somebody please let me know as I'd be willing to drive wherever to watch that comedy. Must see viewing. I do wonder how Wiganers would rate Gelling if he wore a HKR shirt. Doesn't even have the basic skillset of a rugby player, let alone a centre. Makes 2/3 errors a game that cost Wigan the game, but it's alright cos he made 700 metres.

Josh Jones is a back rower as he doesn't have the skillset of a centre. He does offer nice depth there though. At least Saints recognised this. Your incredibly overrated sack of from over the lump went from Ian Thornley to Anthony Gelling (icon_smile.gif). Then you've all got the comic genius to lecture the RL community on your 'depth'.

Brilliant.