I think it's unfair to lump LaFrank in there, I haven't ever doubted his effort or commitment. He's not the barnstorming prop/back row we wanted, but he's not someone I think coasts through games.

I don't think anyone has disputed that effort & commitment are needed.

Indeed, the point that myself and several others have actually made is that 'on paper' we have a very strong team - but the problem is they're not playing together to anywhere near the sum of their parts, and lack of aggression/commitment/effort is a huge factor in that.

wi*an have taken players like Clubb, Sarginson, Dudson (who were hardly stand-out players in poor teams) and moulded them into a team that consistently performs well above the sum of its parts. Look at Matty Smith; he was given several chances at Saints but rarely showed anything more than a glimmer of the ability that we demand from a halfback (including looking out of his depth in the 2010 GF), yet he's been fantastic for wi*an and won the Lance Todd.

The teams under Maguire & Wane play a game based on aggression, passion and organisation. Their attack is structured and players do as they're coached to do.

In contrast, all too often we look disinterested, weak and disorganised in attack, relying on an off-the-cuff moment of skill.

I don't buy that the players are not good enough.

This is a better team than last year. What is lacking is the effort. As has been said elsewhere, you could take those players out of the team and put them elsewhere and they would perform better.

Maybe what Big Mac needs to do is go to Shenton, Smith et al and ask them what has changed for them since leaving Saints.

I'm also not 100% sure it's down to the coach or the 'old guard'.

The coach has changed, there is very little in the way of the old Guard, if anything Wellens is the old guard along with Wilkin.

I do agree there seems to be a fear of dropping players. LMS has had poor games, so have other players yet the only person dropped so far was a good performing Lance for Wilkin????

My fear is that it's not so much the old guard. But the old players passing on old mentality.

We have a lot of ex players knocking about, are they the top people for their job?
Do they pass on a mentality of we are the best, rather than the mentality of we need to work hard to be the best.

We've got rid of Royce and this looks very similar. Clearing out a coach when the problem is systemic. Could Wane come in and change this team??? Or would 6 months down the road, would we be hit with the same issues that come up again and again. Promise dashed by commitment and effort.

Is there a beer drinking culture? Are players not being full time professionals. To me the simple solution is sack someone. But it's a road we have travelled, at the start of the year I would have been sorry that Sia was going back to the NRL, now I'd question whether we'd miss him which is a massive turn around in 2 months.

There are problems but I'm not sure sacking Brown this week is the answer. Although he seems powerless to change anything either.

Were is the power base in this club? who allows players not to turn out with the right attitude?

It does seem to be like what was happening under Royce. But at least we are winning games under brown.

We need a coach who is going to come in and change the culture at this club. Make the selection decisions required and to instil some belief that we can overcome Leeds and Wigan. I'm not sure that the coach coming out saying we are way behind Leeds and Wigan is helpful.

If only there was someone to turn to. A strong character who will take no from these players. A RL equivalent of Van Gaal would be perfect.

Basil?

We're 2nd on the table - Basil was dragging an all star team into decline by the time he left and has been utterly atrocious wherever he has been since.

No thanks

Clough was a great asset to saints gutted when he was sidelined. Walker can do more minutes than Saveilo at the moment. He is a young lad, give him time he will be better for it

Totally disagree no player in any team goes out to lose a game. They are professionals and try and play to the best of their ability. Unbelievable comment

Not so at all. Some players will do the barest minimum when on the pitch, which is not at all professional. You only have to remember 2011 and what Jammer did on the pitch and then watch Puletua do nothing by comparison to know that there are degrees of attitude.

Not really. You honestly saying that was the best of their ability???

did you even watch the game last night? No Heart, No Passion

Sometimes coaches need to come out and say what they mean in order to get a responce from players.

IMO Brown should have come out and said what he told the players. No need to name players as I think that's wrong but he should have said what he told the players.