I'm really struggling to see this weakness in our pack. I mean, had our poor figures been solely the result of Wigan (or some other team's pack) mullering us every set I'd see a point. But very often our position, possession - stats etc. are bad for no other reason than silly, stoopid mistakes and sloppy play.

Sure, a 500 meter defecit can mean a pack was physically dominated. But it's just as likely to mean the team kept dropping the ball and making mistakes. For a champion team we don't half make some stupid errors.

What I will say is what I've said all along. With a strong side and the pack playing well I'm as confident as I can be.

Besides, some of Wigan's forward play this season has been utterly abysmal. Just look at their chief yardage makers. The match stats are embarrassing.

Sure, I get that Wane is trying to play a different type of football. But maybe that's just vanity on his part. There's a reason almost no-one in either the NRL or SL has gone down such a route in decades of rugby.

It was different, in that we were good in defending our line, but we don't half make it difficult for ourselves. As posters have already mentioned we invite the opposition to come at us so they gain extra metres on each play, when we have the ball we struggle to get out of our own half to put in a pressure kick. If there is a stat somewhere for the team who has to kick out from under the own posts, I can bet Saints are high up in this stat.

The goons were 50% (500 metres) better than us for gaining ground, usually this is with getting the ball to the backs but there was some good metres made by the goon pack in this match. Our pack metres one of the worse this season.

I,m not agreeing with Muggers theory above with dropped ball, mistakes and errors costing us metres, Saints are one if not the best team for the least amount of errors, I think the goons made almost twice as many errors than us in this game. The one thing that stands out like a sore thumb is our discipline especially around the 5th tackle, there is a slight improvement but its still not good enough.

Defending our line won us this game which meant we were only chasing for a one score lead, the win was even more sweeter because Wane thought this game was in the bag for those 75mins, don't write off the Saints must have been ringing in his ears.

Can you really not see that we struggle to make meters? Only big alex offers any real go foward.

It's clear as day we don't make any real go foward and teams know this. We are at our most dangerous when we are in their line and teams no if they pin us back we struggle as we play a one up rugby style.

The loss of Vea for most of the year hasn't helped as he does offer go foward but if you look at the rest of the pack we have Amor, Richards, Thompson, Mose (he can on his day), Geeenwood, flash, Wilkin and Lms who couidnt break thru a paper bag most weeks and not great in making meters. Sav is still hit and miss due to his age but some weeks HES making no meters either.

I know you have a soft spot for the pack and that's your opionon but in mine it's nothing more than the normal run of the mill pack.

If we don't get a big tough meter making prop in next year to help alex and robes then we will struggle more. It's clear saints feel this as we have been after every prop and his dog for next year.

We made almost double the amount of errors you did...

We have made less meters than any of the top 6 this year.

Is that an actual stat, mate? If it is then that goes some way to dispelling the myth shared by some that we have this amazing dominant pack.

I agree with you, we need another big forward. It'll be interesting to see if Haggarty can step up to the plate. He's a big lad.

Yes it's true

Yes, thats true 28419 metres average per game 979, Leeds 34201 metres average per game 1180.

We were going OK for the first 6 rounds then we converted to one man rugby for the next 20 rounds. Our metres against Wigan was below average, goons kept us to 950 metres, its all Walmsleys fault for getting injured. Swifty has helped with the metres over the last 3 games but he's not a pack man though.

Jeees...

Swifty has been a godsend this season. Always willing to run it out of his 20. And looks like a decent dancer too.

Early in the year our back three of lomax, swift and tommy had made more meters than any other back three in super league.

At the moment swift is carrying the back three and doing all quinlans kick returns for him.

Swifty has improved loads this season, he makes the odd error now and again but he's been brilliant as the season wore on. Chuffed to bits for him, he's a nightmare for the opposition, his foot work reminds me of Jason Robinson a bit. Wish we could revert him back to his old pre saints position of stand off.

Of course - having either a dysfunctional or no halfback partnership at all (for almost all of the season) couldn't possibly have anything to do with our yardage stats.

This must rank right up there among the most ludicrous statements ever made on this board. Truly Olympic standard. Bravo!

I'm not going to bother debating the point. It would be like attempting to prove the existence of the moon.

Note to self