Really? Props coming through their academy? I'm struggling to think of many as most of their props have come from others clubs e.g. Platt (which was over twenty years ago anyway), Cowie, O'Connor. There may have been plenty coming through during the history days but that production line has dried up and not just there but everywhere.

Let's not kid ourselves.

Madge came in with a specific gameplan (one which nearly every coach in super league has a dig at when they say ''and they play the game in the right way'' when referring to saints/warrington/leeds), but none of the methods he brought in were maintable or condusive to long term success, and couldn't be executed without experienced heads in certain positions, hence the reason he has barely bloodied any new youngsters this season. Already this season teams began to work it out.

I fully expect normal service to resumed next season, in fact it already has this season as wigan failed to make the grand final.

Well you've had madge for 2 years an already a new coach is coming in. How long do you reckon wane will last?

Poor culture you say?

The thing with culture is it's something built over time. Madge can't just come in wave his magic wand and alter the culture at the club.

He came in and gave you a gameplan to win a title. Now it's past it's sell by date.

Of course they've dried up. But within that context Wigan have hardly been prop-less. Again, I'm not talking about the likes of a Kevin Ward or a Graham. But the likes of O'Carroll, Prescott and (probably) Mossop are enough to give any club a solid platform on which to build. And there can be no question that Wigan have produced far better second row forwards than Saints since the arrival of SL.



I think you need to familiarize yourself with the definition of rlessentialrl

[i"1. Absolutely necessary".[/i

Let's substitute those words into my original statement"having a good academy is not and never will be absolutely necessary (to winning SL)". [/i

There is no force I am aware of that guarantees any top academy side future success. On the other hand, it is quite conceivable that a team with a modestly gifted academy could go on to win SL with the aid of a good coach, plenty of money and a bit of luck. How many kids have Huddersfield produced - yet they were not far away from a couple of Challenge Cups and were realistic title contenders this season.

Let's return to Wigan for a moment. A club which has probably produced more SL players than any other club. This is a team which has not only underachieved in SL - it came within a hair's breadth (after some crooked transfer dealings) of being RELEGATED.

Right, I've deleted a boat-load of posts in order to clean this thread up and make it more readable. In future I suggest that if you feel that someone is attempting to troll you do one (or both) of two things a) be the bigger person and ignore the post causing offence and rather than get involved in a petty slanging match and b) use the report system to offer your opinion that the post is a trolling attempt. HOWEVER before doing b), make sure that you have read and considered the post and can offer a reasoned complaint rather than flying off the handle and complaining simply because you disagree with something the poster has written, it is far easier for us to delete one offending post than half a thread.

Now stay on topic. Any posts here in response to this will be deleted.

TS

Thinking about it - if there is one absolute necessity in Rugby League that will give you an outstanding chance of securing a Grand Final it is - [imoney[/i.

Prescott will probably stay but O'Carroll? He's a fringe first 17 at best. Mossop is a good shout but we've produced Graham and Clough during the same time.



Change the essential to critical and the argument remains. You're more likely to be there or thereabouts if you have a better academy system which you could say is evidenced by the fact the previous six Grand Finals have all contained at least one team with a significantly better than average academy system (this year's having more homegrown players than any other previous Grand Final). There will always be exceptions to the rule but as a general principle a good academy is arguably the strongest foundation for success. Having some money behind you may help but it is only a short-term solution because of the nature of the cap i.e. retention of players is normally cheaper than an acquisition so the creation of a good youth programme becomes a key investment area for clubs with money e.g. Warrington.

How many players have come through Wigans academy and got more SL titles than the club itself? Bet theres a few. Long, Gilmour, Forshaw off the top of my head. Definatly a few with more cup medals too.

Scott Naylor?

You tell that to Warrington!

O'Carroll is a solid, grafting prop. I never claimed he was a world-beater.



Having a good academy will indeed give you a better chance of success. But the issue we're debating is whether it is "absolutely necessary" to win a GF. This is patently not true.

Given what seems like a century of underachievement I'm fairly certain Warrington fans are happy with the results recent injections of money have secured.

So a couple of solid grafting props and a kid who is only just making an impact qualifies Wigoon as having a production line of props? I have to disagree.

Going back to the OP. I concurred next year I would actually expect us to move on from where we where this year.

I'll get to the youth debate in a minute.

If we start at prop.

We have lost Graham and no doubt we have not replaced him, but I would argue we don't need to, if anything Graham spent the last 5 years doing too much of the forward work and that needs to be shared around. So we have lost Graham, but we did not see anything much of Perry he will be like a new signing. We have also added with Laffranchi. Megennis will be a year older and more experienced and bigger. Clough will be fit (please). We have a bunch of Props LMS, Clough, Megennis who are 20 somethings and will get bigger and better with age. That is a strong basis to go forward, with the experience and talent of Perry/TP and Laffranchi to back them up.

2md row. Wilkin back to his best, Sia has been mostly great this year and again is a 20 something forward with the potential to improve even more. Add to this Flannaghan for Moore, Dixon who was getting better and better at the end of the season. Flannery offers solid back up and of course Laffranchi who we are not sure but is a 2nd rower, but may play prop.

Roby hooking enough said , but with Flannaghan, Lomax and Lance to back up this posistion is strengthened.

Wings we have 2 great young lads, with back up from Gardner, - I can't recall when we had 3 wingers competiting for positions. Foster and Makinson will get better after their first full year.

Centres for me it has to be Wheeler and Shenton. If Wheeler strikes out, then Meli to cover. And we go shopping in 2013 to find a centre.

Halfbacks well they got us to a GF and CC semi pretty much on their own, next year they will have Lance to add experience to that energy and raw talent.

FB well the good money is on Wellens, but we have people just ready to take that jersy off him.

All in all I think we have added depth in a few positions and the youth stepping up this year, will be better for it next year.

Yes we all think another prop would ice the cake nicely, but whose to say we are done signing people.

There are plenty of other people on the move this week.