And for next season, we need to be looking at the best OOC players from other clubs, like Hanbury and Sneyd, and not being beaten to it by other teams as has been the case in recent years. They're not world beaters, but they're the time of players we need and would make a difference.

Starting to look like the Wigan of 2005. We all know what happened next...

I've been saying the same thing since 2008 about us not willing to build and how we lack ambition.

I'm not going to complety bag off McManus but its about time he either looked for someone with ambition to build a successful club to join forces with him or to find someone to replace him.

We've been on the slide for many years and the excuse of transition has been used but IMO its lack of ambition that's killed us.

I disagree. Today's performance is similar to previous performances this season. The impact of those performances is cumulative.

No, it's not an overreaction. Look at the players you've listed. Lomax was beginning to look like a good fullback, but our form is so poor that we were talking about him as if he's a new messiah. Compare him to Tompkins, and ask whether we're not clutching at straws a bit even with our star player. Roby has undoubtedly been a superb servant, but for about twelve months now, he's been a shadow of his former self offensively, and this injury suggests he's no longer as resilient as he once was. He wouldn't have made the winning difference even today against a journeyman HKR side. As for Manu and Flanagan, it is utterly tragic that anyone might think that these are two star players who would make the difference. Flanagan is a workhorse whose only difference from Clough's unremarkable tackling machine is that he's a different body shape. Manu is going to cost us far more games than he wins us with his brainfart offloads and penalties.

That's the point. Bring those four back into the side, and we still lose, because fundamentally, we do not know what we're doing on the pitch. There is no plan, and there is no creativity. Pedestrian, passive, incoherent play.

We're in deep doodoo, and making like ostriches isn't going to sort this out.

So which of the above is a halfback? It's not an overreaction I mean what I say when say this is THE worst Saints side in many many years. Utter garbage

Its the worst saints team I've seen in super league and that's without doubt!

I was going to list the players that ain't good enough but it be quicker to name the players that are good enough (excluding youngsters)

Lomax
Makinson
Roby
Sia
Walmsley

There are some good individuals in this side who could make the nucleus of a very good side.

However because of the lack of pack and halves, the sum of our parts is less than the individuals themselves.

The season is I believe a complete right off, I think the best we could hope for is to make the top 8, but when you consider that mid table sides like Hull KR, Bradford and Hull FC are stronger than us, then its looking like a big ask.

Personally think that from now on we should use the rest of the season to develop our kids and help bring them through. I would look at giving the likes of Carl Forster a run out in the front row, same also for Jordan Hand.

We will lose games playing them but ultimately it should play dividends, not this season, but a season or two down the line.

I think we would have won that game today if all those injured players were playing this afternoon. Also we said at the beginning of the season we will not get to any final without half backs, we are what we are a mid table team, people should stop torturing themselves and accept it for this season.

I think we could have won that game today if we had played in the first half like we did for half of the second half. Our problem, aside from any coaching issues, is attitude. Our discipline stunk to high heaven in the first half and we got exactly what we deserved. I don't think our injured players would have made any difference at all today.

I'm happy to accept it as long as the club are happy to accept me and I suspect many other not renewing season tickets until we show some bloody ambition

From the current team, the first team players I'd want here next season are Turner, Soliola, Meli (if there's no other option), Lomax, Roby, LMS (if he pulls his finger out and his form picks up), Puletua, Manu, Flanagan, Wheeler (if he sorts his injury problems out), Jones, Gaskell, Makinson, Greenwood, Walmsley, Swift, Walker and Percival. Sack the rest off, giving us 3 quota spots and a lot of quota space. They're some decent OOC contract super league players that we should snap instead of losing out to Leeds/Wigan/Huddersfield like we always do. We need a stand off, scrum half, winger, 2 or 3 props and loose in my opinion. This season's a write off for me, lets hope our recruitment kick starts soon so we've got something to look forward to next season.

I didnt list the young lads I'd keep like Percival, swift, greenwood, walker etc

The squad needs a radical change. Like I've said many times, the best teams build on success and not go into decline. We started to lack ambition in retention and recruitment and that's why we are in this mess.

I hate to say it but I told you so.

so true, we took the eye off the ball and look where we are now. great stadium poor team and no plans to fix it.

McManus promised us " a team to grace the new stadium".

He's broke that promise.