Well said.

I'd say we're as good as any in this country at producing quantity along with quality youngsters. Roby and Graham the first batch and now we're seeing even more quality coming through and I'd expect even more in 3-5 years.

If we are going to make a comparison, surely it has to be with the other top youth systems in Super League. Call it Wigan and Leeds for the past ten years - how many first rate props have they produced?

To use the NRL as a yardstick for Super League youth systems is ridiculous considering the talent pool they have to choose from.

Ridiculous to do a comparison with the NRL.

In Aus, natural athletes play RL, in the UK, the natual athletes tend to play football.

I've seen first hand the work our development system delivers and it really is first class. It is certainly not for the want of time, money and effort on behalf of the clubs development coaches. At the end of the day, you have to make the best of what you have available and the club certainly does. There are some real quality kids in the current academy system including some front rowers of the future like Joe Bate and Brad Ashurst. If they continue to work hard, these guys will be first teamers of the future.

One for BackrowSaint here.....

On the Sydney Herald website


rlhttps://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/league-news/st-helens-set-to-raid-nrl-after-losing-graham-20110427-1dwz7.htmlrl

At the bottom of the Graham piece it says:

They have been unable to re-sign former Penrith second-rower Tony Puletua amid significant interest from elsewhere in the competition, although there have also been suggestions the Kiwi might be considering a return to the NRL. Tigers prop Bryce Gibbs has also been mentioned as a target for St Helens.

I couldn't really be fussed answering that negative diatribe from Mugwump, but thanks to those that did.

For a start off, James Graham is a freak. He is not only extremely durable, but he has a passing game that has brought the role of ball playing prop back into fashion and is so good that it is a skill we will be unlikely to see in many other props, regardless of how many we actually produce. In addition, James Graham has been a real motivator on the pitch, something that any player could be, not necessarily a prop. So James Graham I think is unique in the combination of qualities he has to offer and no-one has produced anyone like him in this country for the whole time he has been playing. It could be said that props like him are a rare commodity down under too or else why has he been actively sought by NRL teams?

Aside from that, how do you know we haven't been producing quality props? I don't know what Frodsham is like, other than perpetually injured, but he could be quality when fit. Or Forster, also presently injured. Joe Greenwood has been given a shirt having played prop in the u20s game recently, so he could be a second rower moving forward. And we don't know who else is coming through the system, year by year.

As suggested, we have radically improved our youth development system over the last ten years. But that is very recent if we are talking about seeing the results. We are just beginning to see those results. We seem particularly good at producing second rowers and halfbacks but as stated in one of Saints' match programmes this season, the Saints' system encourages young players to play in numerous positions. Unless we follow the youth teams actively, which I don't, most of us won't have a clue what kind of talent is coming through. We will see it only when there are enough injuries in the first team for one of them to have a debut.

I was pretty impressed with Makinson, even though he is a Wiganer, but although I had heard of him prior to his debut, I had no idea what he was like. I thought Armstrong did ok standing in at fullback, yet he has only played at centre in the first team previously. I think it is testament to our production line now that we are able to call on such a variety of young players, most of whom appear to slip seemlessly into the first team when called upon. No doubt we will witness many more examples of our home grown talent in the seasons ahead as the system of the last ten years continues to bear fruit.

Sounds like Muggers is being visited by the Black Dog. Cheer up old chap. Your concerns are valid, but it's unlikely that all the negative possible outcomes will simultaneously come to pass. There may be some positives as well.

In twenty years our youth system has produced Cunningham, Roby and Graham. Three genuine world class, best at their position players. It's not Brisbane Broncos but it is significantly better than any other British club. The only other team that comes close is Bradford who brought through Fielden and Peacock but even then the former faded before his natural peak and was he really the best in the world at prop? Probably not. I would add that both the Tomkins brothers have potential to rise to the top too but it's too early to judge.

ps don't forget little cloughy, more and more a prop each year. Then there is emmitt who went to Cas and Johnson at Wakey.

There are 4 props how many do we want to produce each year?????

Before Wellens. We're looking at a ten year gap. Possibly more.



I'm sorry but this is pure historical revisionism. We are NOT "far better" than what we were. Indeed, there's an argument to say that our junior set-up was as good (some might even say BETTER) under Eric Hughes (think of the players that generation produced - not least of whom is Cunningham). And let's not forget that Hughes (and British RL as a whole) didn't have half the advantages our current coaches possess.

And since when did picking out traditionally weak positions as far as development is concerned count as loaded reasoning?

Jes I only asked if you were feeling down and tried to give some +ve's to cheer you a little.

Some people don't want to be happy.


In the end the league will tell, currently we are 5 GF's on the bounce and 3rd a 3rd of the way through the current season. We can't get to the top of the NRL because we don't play in it. If we did then we would have access to their cash and the selling Graham would be a mute point as he would not need to leave to play in the NRL.

Saints can only compete where we can, and in those circles we are doing nicely, thankyou very much. We are one of the top clubs, developing players and not all players will be world class, but not every NRL club produces world class players.

You seam to want to be depressed so I'll stop trying to cheer you up, but I disagree entirely with your premise.

Eric Huges was in charge from 1994 for just over 2 years, was he was promoted to the role directly from the Academy? Otherwise you cannot possibly claim Cunningham was a Hughes gem seeing as he'd have come from a previous Youth set up.

Extending Huges effects through to 1998 the kind of junior players that era brought through were Chris Morley, Joey Hayes, Richard Shiel, Andy Leatham, Danny Arnold, Paul Anderson (the centre), John McAtee, Brian Capewell, Tony Stewart, Jason Johnson, Lee Briers, Alan Cross, Scott Barrow.

There are a couple of decent players and others showed promise but it is hardly a who's who of Super League talent and trophies is it, let alone International and World Class? And Hughes wasn't restricted with a paltry salary cap, or pro rugby union and football, while dominant was far less celebrity instant millionaire that it is now.

Back to the present day the fact we could concievably field a decent starting 13 entirely based from academy products suggests we are doing fairly well at prodcuing SL talent

Wellens, Foster, Armstrong, Wheeler, Makinson, Gaskell, Lomax, Graham, Roby, Clough, Ashurst, Dixon, Magennis
Throw in a bench of last season departures doing ok in SL too: Jake Emmit, Paul Johnson, Chris Dean, Kyle Eastmond.

I accept it is not perfect and I know not all of the above will have long successful careers but it is clearly improving and the standard being produced is definitely better.

With such a great youth system, which follows that of such as Leeds and Wigan it is unfortunate that you felt that you had to come to London to take LMS a player brought through the London Youth system which is starting to develop.