The funny thing is Wigan have been far more successful at producing players in positions which are absolutely crucial to winning the title (mostly the pack). Aside from Graham (and possibly Clough, who is half-back row half prop) our academy has failed miserably insofar as big men are concerned. I'm not saying Wigan are producing world beaters - but they have consistently churned out solid, grafting props which are the platform for any side with title-winning aspirations. How many quality back row forwards have Saints produced in the past twenty years. How many have Wigan produced?

If SL was decided by academy strength alone Wigan would have probably won three times as many titles. The fact that they have won only two suggests having a good academy is not and never will be essential.

Couldn't disagree more, an absolutely ridiculous statement IMO. Bringing through your own quality youngsters is vital to a teams chances. Just look at the sides that have won and dominated the SL competition since it's inception. Bradford for starters brought through some terrific youngsters at the time of their success. From Fielden and Pryce to Peacock and Deacon.

The current Leeds team are where they are because of the superb group of youngsters they brought through together earlier this decade.

St Helens wouldn't be where they are today if the likes of Wellens and Cunigham hadn't come through your system, and you certainly wouldn't be continuing to challenge for honors this year if your academy hadn't brought through the likes of Gaskel, Lomax and Foster.

It's the fact that the lower sides in SL struggle to produce good quality youngsters in any great numbers that stops them progressing up the table.

Well, let's test your theory. Out of St. Helens and Wigan which club - over the entirety of SL - has produced more SL quality players. I'd say Wigan. I'd even stretch to a tie. But nothing more.

Number of Wigan titles: 2.
Number of Saints titles: 5

Indeed, I'd argue Wigan have produced more SL players than Leeds and Bradford.

Number of Leeds titles: 5
Number of Bulls titles: 4.

I'm not denigrating youth development. But to suggest such is "essential" does not seem in line with results.

It's a huge part but not the only part of creating a title winning side IMO. It was the other parts of the jigsaw that Wigan lacked that probably cost us a title or two. The constant chopping and changing of coach and in turn poor culture at the club was more than detrimental to our chances.

Your almost suggesting that Saints could still challenge for honors next year if the likes of Lomax, Gaskel and Makinson hadn't come through your academy. Something I severely doubt. As I would Wigan's chances if we took the likes of Sam, Joel, Charnley and Mossop out of the Wigan side.

Bradford are on the slide in part because of their distinctly average youngsters coming through, coupled with a few other things of course. Saints like Bradford have lost a lot of their best and most experienced players of late, but because of your far superior academy you've been able to overcome their departures.

Really? Props coming through their academy? I'm struggling to think of many as most of their props have come from others clubs e.g. Platt (which was over twenty years ago anyway), Cowie, O'Connor. There may have been plenty coming through during the history days but that production line has dried up and not just there but everywhere.



Perhaps a better way of assessing the "essential-ness" of academies would be to evaluate the performance of teams with weaker academies in comparison to stronger ones. You can use the pies in your argument but why didn't you use Leeds who had a strong academy system which has recently reaped rewards? By using the pies and not considering others you are presenting only a snippet of fact which isn't necessarily truth.

Let's not kid ourselves.

Madge came in with a specific gameplan (one which nearly every coach in super league has a dig at when they say ''and they play the game in the right way'' when referring to saints/warrington/leeds), but none of the methods he brought in were maintable or condusive to long term success, and couldn't be executed without experienced heads in certain positions, hence the reason he has barely bloodied any new youngsters this season. Already this season teams began to work it out.

I fully expect normal service to resumed next season, in fact it already has this season as wigan failed to make the grand final.

Well you've had madge for 2 years an already a new coach is coming in. How long do you reckon wane will last?

Poor culture you say?

The thing with culture is it's something built over time. Madge can't just come in wave his magic wand and alter the culture at the club.

He came in and gave you a gameplan to win a title. Now it's past it's sell by date.

Of course they've dried up. But within that context Wigan have hardly been prop-less. Again, I'm not talking about the likes of a Kevin Ward or a Graham. But the likes of O'Carroll, Prescott and (probably) Mossop are enough to give any club a solid platform on which to build. And there can be no question that Wigan have produced far better second row forwards than Saints since the arrival of SL.



I think you need to familiarize yourself with the definition of [url=http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/essentialessential[/url

[i"1. Absolutely necessary".[/i

Let's substitute those words into my original statement: [i"having a good academy is not and never will be absolutely necessary (to winning SL)". [/i

There is no force I am aware of that guarantees any top academy side future success. On the other hand, it is quite conceivable that a team with a modestly gifted academy could go on to win SL with the aid of a good coach, plenty of money and a bit of luck. How many kids have Huddersfield produced - yet they were not far away from a couple of Challenge Cups and were realistic title contenders this season.

Let's return to Wigan for a moment. A club which has probably produced more SL players than any other club. This is a team which has not only underachieved in SL - it came within a hair's breadth (after some crooked transfer dealings) of being RELEGATED.

Right, I've deleted a boat-load of posts in order to clean this thread up and make it more readable. In future I suggest that if you feel that someone is attempting to troll you do one (or both) of two things a) be the bigger person and ignore the post causing offence and rather than get involved in a petty slanging match and b) use the report system to offer your opinion that the post is a trolling attempt. HOWEVER before doing b), make sure that you have read and considered the post and can offer a reasoned complaint rather than flying off the handle and complaining simply because you disagree with something the poster has written, it is far easier for us to delete one offending post than half a thread.

Now stay on topic. Any posts here in response to this will be deleted.

TS

Thinking about it - if there is one absolute necessity in Rugby League that will give you an outstanding chance of securing a Grand Final it is - [imoney[/i.

Prescott will probably stay but O'Carroll? He's a fringe first 17 at best. Mossop is a good shout but we've produced Graham and Clough during the same time.



Change the essential to critical and the argument remains. You're more likely to be there or thereabouts if you have a better academy system which you could say is evidenced by the fact the previous six Grand Finals have all contained at least one team with a significantly better than average academy system (this year's having more homegrown players than any other previous Grand Final). There will always be exceptions to the rule but as a general principle a good academy is arguably the strongest foundation for success. Having some money behind you may help but it is only a short-term solution because of the nature of the cap i.e. retention of players is normally cheaper than an acquisition so the creation of a good youth programme becomes a key investment area for clubs with money e.g. Warrington.

How many players have come through Wigans academy and got more SL titles than the club itself? Bet theres a few. Long, Gilmour, Forshaw off the top of my head. Definatly a few with more cup medals too.