Listing Leeds in such illuminated company runs a very real risk of undermining your credibility. That and setting up a false dichotomy insofar as how Leeds are perceived by others. Aside from some very bitter Hull and Bulls' fans I'm struggling to believe anyone considers their "villainy" to extend beyond the usual sort of club rivalry. Crowds may chant [i"We all hate Leeds"[/i, but they also chant [i"Wanky, Wanky Warrington"[/i and [i"if you all hate Wigan clap your hands"[/i etc. It's throwaway stuff and certainly not based on any kind or rational thinking. If we all hate Leeds then surely there must be a good reason. I'm struggling to think of one - aside from them being not [imy team[/i, from [imy county[/i etc. etc.

Whether Leeds (or any other successful SL club) have the requisite winning psychology to replicate form in another competition I'm skeptical. There are very, very few easy games in the NRL. The Champions League isn't far behind. And at the top level of boxing the competition (aside from at Heavyweight where things have fallen apart recently) it's dog-eat-dog.

As I said, Leeds are a great SL side. But I don't think we should kid ourselves over where they stand in the world of Rugby League. My best guess sees them struggling near the foot of the NRL. Aside from Peacock and Ellis none of their British players have caused Australia more than temporary discomfort (the odd try from McGuire, scoot from Burrow etc.) I suppose Lautiti and Webb made a mark, but the former couldn't handle the pressure and the latter had the good sense to get out before he became fatally exposed (like Meli).

How so? If you disagree you disagree. I'm not sure you can suggest there's a demonstrable standard that can be applied consistently when such evaluations are subjective. Neither of us are qualified to determine, on behalf of the universe, what is and what isn't champions spirit however my article was a statement of opinion that I believe Leeds have shown it. If you want to attempt to define what champion spirit means to you please do so. I find it hard to define but I believe I have seen it in Leeds.



I think we're all aware that it doesn't have to be one or the other. The jist was a play on the common perception that's popularised in the terrace anthem based on 'Tom Hark'. I'm being playful.



I wouldn't disagree with that but it's a different discussion and purely hypothetical.



Again it's a different discussion. I'm not arguing exactly where in the world Leeds' achievement stands on the sporting ladder of success but I am saying they have a place in the category of greatness. Just look at it as Keiron Cunningham might not get mentioned as a top ten RL player of all-time but he would still be considered to be great and to have shown champion spirit.

There is no objective standard. But anyone with half a brain can discriminate between a competition in which just about every contender is strong and another where they clearly are not. I've no absolute proof to say one is better than another but I think it is [ireasonable[/i to make such a case. I'm sure there are many teams in the lower leagues of football containing born winners. Would I expect them to beat United in the cup? No.



If there is such a thing as "champions spirit" then I see no reason to suggest it is indivisible. What happens when two teams with such meet - a draw? I could just as easily say Manly have a [igreater[/i champion spirit because it has triumphed over a league of teams which has plenty of champions in it.

Surely when you assess the teams you make some sort of evaluation of 'champions spirit" even if you can't accurately define it? After all we are talking about describing a sport where accurately defining why an individual is successful usually results in minor abstract principles such as "a brilliant rugby brain". In such a context applying logical measurements may well be nigh on impossible.

I'm not quite sure what people are debating.

Leeds have won 5 titles in 8 years, so they are obviously one of the top super league teams to rivals saints and bradford.

I don't think theres much more to it.

Who said anything about "logical measurement"? I didn't. What I said is the "Champion Spirit" of Leeds isn't necessarily equivalent throughout different frames of reference. I suppose the mentality that drove the 49ers to several titles shares a lot in common with Leeds'. But I can't say swapping the latter into the former would have made no difference to the 49ers. They were playing in a much tougher competition where almost every team had a champion mentality. I just don't see the concept as indivisible. Which means I think one can be ranked above another - if by no other means than gut instinct.

We established this in the first post. Thank you for your contribution.

You are probably quite right there but it doesn't mean that Leeds don't possess it, in whatever variation/permutation. How else do we explain how a team which is full of individuals who are regularly written off continues to find significant success?

The San Francisco 49ers have won 5 Superbowls. However, four of them came before the NFL introduced a salary cap and the last came in 1995, the year after the cap was introduced.

At the time of the 49ers Superbowls the NFL was not the fiercely competitive league it is now. In fact, in the 10 years that preceded the NFLs salary cap the Superbowl was shared between the 49ers, Redskins, Giants and Cowboys. Most other teams were a Salford etc. It was 14 years between Superbowl wins from AFC teams.

Sor I agree with you, he shouldn't compare Leeds to the 49ers. Leeds acheivements in a salary capped sport are far, far greater than the 49ers acheivements were in an uncapped sport.

IF my antie had a penis she would be my uncle but she hasn't so she isn't

I'm sure the 49ers are in awe.

I agree.

To be honest, I think comparing the early 90s Cincinatti Bengals to Salford does Salford a grave dis-service.

Were the NY Jets a team of champions throughout that period? Were they chuff.

Revisonist history alert.

Also, I feel, slightly missing the point of the blog. Maybe that's just me though.