It seems there is a bit of a misconception around our pack. Whenever you lot are moaning about needing signings, most of them are centres, wingers and halfbacks. I've watched the Hull game again three times now as our Sky planner was taping two other shows for the Mrs. What strikes me is how easily our pack was beaten, it really was demolished. AND that Hull pack was missing arguably it's best two players in Pritchard and Manu. Our pack is a myth.

Alex Walmsley's season is a big concern for me. His body language is terrible and his impact, whilst it would be impressive for most players, is an absolute mile off what it was last season. I can only think of the Warrington away game where he's really stepped up and got on top of a quality pack. I've suggested a few times that he needs a couple of weeks off to re-energise and I hope that's all it is. If he's been playing injured all season then it's just stupidity. Note, not criticising him, he's a great player but he doesn't seem the happy chap he was last season and he's not having the impact he was either.

Kyle Amor is another player I've got a lot of time for, like Alex. He's a workhorse and invaluable to the team. But against Hull, like against Wigan and Catalans he was bullied and dominated by bigger, more aggressive players.

Robes, whilst still a high quality player is on his way down from the stratosphere in terms of performance. It's inevitable when he's played so many minutes for so many years and I would never criticise a legend like Robes. But the club has again failed to plan for his decline and IMO he's arguably not in the top 3 English hookers currently. He's been the rock of our pack for years and with the rest of the pack so weak currently it's getting hard.

Wilkin and Vea. Both have their good moments with the ball, but both are defensive nightmares. Between them they cost us probably 3 or 4 tries a game recently, which is unacceptable. Both should be going at the end of the season, but I suspect it'll be cheaper to keep them, so they'll stay.

LMS has his critics, but I love him so won't criticise him. He deserves a new deal, despite his failings. He's easily the fittest, fastest big man in Super League and with a proper front row set would be a great weapon. What happens now is he's trying to do too much in the wrong areas to make a difference. Tasi I won't even mention as he doesn't warrant it.

What I think the club needs is a new backrow. I'd sign one big monster prop and one backrower and promote from within for the other positions. The likes of Morgan Knowles, Luke Thompson and Andre Savelio should be playing over Richards, Vea, Tasi and Wilkin. Is Nzongou a prospect? Get him in, along with any other senior academy players who have a chance of improving us.

We are really dumb with our forwards and most games surrender "winning the ruck area".

In defence..........we don;t have quick consistent line speed, we allow the opposition to run at us with energy and go forward, also we only tackle the upper body so the opposition make metres easy and find there front pretty quickly and get faster PTB.

In attack...........our forwards are very flat and semi static when the opposition come in, we don't offload and our players get mauled or put on there backs for a slower PTB.

Robes and Walmsley have struggled all season to get that extra second or quality ball to have impact, we have a "plodding pack" who are robotic into completing sets first and foremost instead of trying to dominate with purpose. LMS is head and shoulders above everyone in the pack for effort and energy always causes problems to the opposition week in week out. Wilkin, Vea, Greenwood are liabilities in defending the line when one on one, with Lomax, Fages and Walsh giving attacking options it might be worth replacing Wilkin with Knowles who can tackle and has greater energy.

I agree with almost everything that Saddened has said, but I think he is being harsh on Roby. As he rightly pointed out, our pack is poor at the minute and is being dominated. As a result, Roby has nothing to work with. You only have to look at how bad Clark was at Wire last season or how good Houghton has looked this year to see that a 9 can only do so much behind a beaten pack. You can count the amount of times he's played behind a dominant pack on one hand this year. Wire away springs to mind, and he was very impressive there. He is still the best 9 in the league for me, despite not being as good as he was 4 or 5 years ago. We do need to plan for when he does break down though. I'd like to see us bring a 9 in to spell him with. Milner at Cas or McShane for me would both do a solid job.

In terms of the pack, the treatment of Savelio and Greenwood this season has been bizzare. I was thinking about Greenwood, Wilkin and Vea's defence watching the fc game back and how bad it was, but I think the whole team is slacking defensively currently for whatever reason. I hope the reason Thompson isn't playing is because he is injured. I'd go (when fully fit):

Amor Roby Thompson
Greenwood LMS
Wilkin

Savelio
Walmsley
Knowles
Vea

Apart from the continued "Love-in" with LMS ( a sort of reverse Wellens if you will)
I think that is a fair summation.

Saints have ruined Roby plain and simple. Any decent squad needs a pair of hookers and to be run as a pair.

It highlights the knack Saints have developed in being able to "un-develop" the few good players we have
forwards and back alike.

Shenton is another good example. Turner came to the club with one shortcoming now he has at least three.

I can see Walmsley , Greenwood and Savelio going in the next 12 months based on frustration and
the lack of ambition at the club.

I think the front of the pack is Sts best area. It's coaching structure around them that is the issue.

Forwards are obviously out of form for whatever reason, but they have at least shown their capabilities in the past and a lot of them have potential to improve and long careers ahead.

We are in desperate need of new players in the backline IMO - we have no size or speed to speak of, and precious little quality too (Jonny and Percy excepted). However given the standard of signings made in the last few years I have my doubts as to whether we are willing or able to attract the players we need. A depressing situation.

As usual Saddened is spot on and I agree with most of what is said.

Kyle Amor is undoubtedly your best prop and would get into most SL teams. I dont think he gets the credit he deserves. He really is a workhorse and is a good professional.

Walmsley is having a terrible season and most certainly wont get into the England squad at the end of the season.

Richards/Savelio/Thompson will all come good i belive but are at least 5 years away from their peak yet.

Tasi is just a journeyman and is nowhere near good enough for Saints. He isnt fit to lace the boots of those who played in Saints team of 10 years ago.

The pack is like the whole squad, it's just not good enough

Quite. I can't fault him for effort as he is giving 100%. But would not score him high on brains or application.

Incidentally our players are 1, 2 and 3 in the whole of Super League - for missed tackles!
1. Wilkin
2. Walsh
3. LMS

On the plus side, two of our props Amor & Walmsley are in the top 10 for both carries and metres made.

Agree with everything. Development of players seems to be the worst I've seen at saints.
Where things this bad under Royce?

We have 5 players in the 1st 20 for missed tackles.

Attack wise we don't have any players in the first 20 for Tackle Busts - Clean Breaks - Offloads. (Indicators to show our boredom play)

Wilkin also tops the charts for penalties conceded. And we only have one player in the top twenty try-scorers: second rower Joe Greenwood at 13th.

He still makes the 4th most tackles in SL quite a way ahead of Roby and the most for any 2nd row player. Unfortunately he is No 1 in missed tackles and No 1 in penalties given away.

It looks to me that you can't fault him for effort but has become a bit of a liability and a bit over the hill unfortunately. He is turning into another Wellens at the end of his career

He's a bit of a "Jack of all Trades' isn't he, and has been lumbered to take up responsibilities due to recruitment shortfall. He dropped body mass to play in the halves but wasn't a master in that position, he came back into the pack but he was a bit lightweight. To be captain was a great honour for him but he isn't a natural leader and loses focus to keep the team to the supposed game plan.
Knowles is probably a season away from a regular team spot at the expense of Wilkin but who is going to step up and be captain/leader, can't think of one single player good enough to take up the role.