[sizerlHeroes Not Villainsrl[/size

Leeds are a great SL side. That's beyond question. Where they rank in the pantheon of sporting achievement is debatable. I mean, you can't seriously compare them to, say, the San Francisco 49ers - not least because the NFL is arguably the most fiercely competitive league in the world. Just about every side is a Leeds or a Wigan or a Bradford - certainly not a Salford. Ditto Barcelona, who competing in the Champions League took on the combined might of the greatest and most well-financed football teams in Europe (drawing from the talent pool of the world).

Lennox Lewis didn't carve out a legacy as one of the best heavyweight champs of the modern era fighting solely in Britain. He beat the best the world had to offer to become champ three times (an unprecedented achievement).

Even within the sport of RL it is hard to elevate the Rhinos to the level of, say, the Brisbane Broncos who triumphed over the best teams the world had to offer.

Let's be honest. SL is a second-tier British sport scratching around to find the best athletic talent not taken up by football, union and even cricket. This is the reason teams can dominate for extended periods. The same is not true in Australia today where any team winning several titles in one decade can justifiably be labeled "Great".

Perhaps I wasn't clear in terms of linking them. My referencing of such greats was to give credibility to my viewpoint i.e. I believe I have sufficient experience to make such a comment.

Those referenced where teams or individuals who showed champion spirit of the highest order and irrespective of where you feel the tier of British RL is Leeds' achievement is a great one. I'm not suggesting they're a seminal outfit who have pushed the game technically or strategically but inferring there is a psychological X-factor there within a team of regularly criticised individuals.

Maybe Leeds' success isn't as magnificent as winning four Superbowls, however that doesn't mean it isn't great. You can't deny that the champion spirit within those successes mentioned is replicated in our own Super League champions. I think that's something that's worth celebrating and acknowledging. Both the best Wigoon and Saints teams have it and so this Leeds team should sit with them.

Right at this moment I couldn't care less about the Leeds team. Good job for them yesterday that we had injuries to two key players which created all kinds of mahem in our ranks otherwise they might have gotten well and truly beaten. I'm sure you wouldn't have been writing that stuff if they had been, would ya?

What? I wouldn't have written that if they'd gotten beat? Well of course I wouldn't. The whole inspiration behind it was that they had won in only the most dramatic late season run for who knows how long and topped it with a mesmerising final.

How on earth was that a mesmerising final? I guess I was watching another match!

I hardly think they are worthy of such eulogy though given that we were beating them until we were sucker punched with injuries. You're making them out to be all-conquering and they aren't. They just took advantage of our situation as any team would do.

thats far easier said than done, trust me. Even weakened like we were we would still have had enough to roll most teams in SL.

Maybe, although you're underestimating the other coaches, but that's irrelevant as this is Leeds we are talking about and they know just who to target. They didn't even look at the other wing, just went for Meli all the time. Those injuries were a gift to them. That is why this loss IMO is worse than all the others.

But Leeds targeted Saints right hand side even before Shenton went off. I couldn't believe they didn't go at Foster.

Did they? I don't remember. Last night is fast becoming the blur that the previous four GFs became.

If they did then that's even worse because their coach must have got his tactics from Millward, who also recommended Leeds attack our right side, but our right side is our strongest side. Unless McDermott was in comando mode and thought his side would do best to wear down our strength rather than attack our weakness.

So they really did get lucky then!

Listing Leeds in such illuminated company runs a very real risk of undermining your credibility. That and setting up a false dichotomy insofar as how Leeds are perceived by others. Aside from some very bitter Hull and Bulls' fans I'm struggling to believe anyone considers their "villainy" to extend beyond the usual sort of club rivalry. Crowds may chant [i"We all hate Leeds"[/i, but they also chant [i"Wanky, Wanky Warrington"[/i and [i"if you all hate Wigan clap your hands"[/i etc. It's throwaway stuff and certainly not based on any kind or rational thinking. If we all hate Leeds then surely there must be a good reason. I'm struggling to think of one - aside from them being not [imy team[/i, from [imy county[/i etc. etc.

Whether Leeds (or any other successful SL club) have the requisite winning psychology to replicate form in another competition I'm skeptical. There are very, very few easy games in the NRL. The Champions League isn't far behind. And at the top level of boxing the competition (aside from at Heavyweight where things have fallen apart recently) it's dog-eat-dog.

As I said, Leeds are a great SL side. But I don't think we should kid ourselves over where they stand in the world of Rugby League. My best guess sees them struggling near the foot of the NRL. Aside from Peacock and Ellis none of their British players have caused Australia more than temporary discomfort (the odd try from McGuire, scoot from Burrow etc.) I suppose Lautiti and Webb made a mark, but the former couldn't handle the pressure and the latter had the good sense to get out before he became fatally exposed (like Meli).

How so? If you disagree you disagree. I'm not sure you can suggest there's a demonstrable standard that can be applied consistently when such evaluations are subjective. Neither of us are qualified to determine, on behalf of the universe, what is and what isn't champions spirit however my article was a statement of opinion that I believe Leeds have shown it. If you want to attempt to define what champion spirit means to you please do so. I find it hard to define but I believe I have seen it in Leeds.



I think we're all aware that it doesn't have to be one or the other. The jist was a play on the common perception that's popularised in the terrace anthem based on 'Tom Hark'. I'm being playful.



I wouldn't disagree with that but it's a different discussion and purely hypothetical.



Again it's a different discussion. I'm not arguing exactly where in the world Leeds' achievement stands on the sporting ladder of success but I am saying they have a place in the category of greatness. Just look at it as Keiron Cunningham might not get mentioned as a top ten RL player of all-time but he would still be considered to be great and to have shown champion spirit.

There is no objective standard. But anyone with half a brain can discriminate between a competition in which just about every contender is strong and another where they clearly are not. I've no absolute proof to say one is better than another but I think it is [ireasonable[/i to make such a case. I'm sure there are many teams in the lower leagues of football containing born winners. Would I expect them to beat United in the cup? No.



If there is such a thing as "champions spirit" then I see no reason to suggest it is indivisible. What happens when two teams with such meet - a draw? I could just as easily say Manly have a [igreater[/i champion spirit because it has triumphed over a league of teams which has plenty of champions in it.

Surely when you assess the teams you make some sort of evaluation of 'champions spirit" even if you can't accurately define it? After all we are talking about describing a sport where accurately defining why an individual is successful usually results in minor abstract principles such as "a brilliant rugby brain". In such a context applying logical measurements may well be nigh on impossible.

I'm not quite sure what people are debating.

Leeds have won 5 titles in 8 years, so they are obviously one of the top super league teams to rivals saints and bradford.

I don't think theres much more to it.