I did a comparison between this year's first 5 games and the past two years first 5 games under Mick Potter, to see if we actually have improved - or not.

In 2009:
We played; Warrington (won), Huddersfield (won), Hull KR (lost), Celtic (won) and Salford (won).
In total we conceded 52 points; 14 (Warrington), 6 (Huddersfield), 20 (Hull KR), 0 (Celtic) and 12 (Salford).
However we scored 110 points; 26 (Warrington), 23 (Huddersfield), 19 (Hull KR), 4 (Celtic) and 38 (Salford).

In 2010:
We played; Hull FC (lost), Bradford (won), Catalans (won), Wakefield (won) and Hull KR (lost).
In total we conceded 94 points; 32 (Hull FC), 6 (Bradford), 12 (Catalans), 16 (Wakefield) and 28 (Hull KR).
However we scored 138 pints; 12 (Hull FC), 38 (Bradford), 42 (Catalans), 22 (Wakefield) and 24 (Hull KR).

This year:
We played; Wigan (Drawn), Salford (won), Warrington (lost), Catalans (won) and Harlequins (lost).
In total we've conceded 106 points; 16 (Wigan), 22 (Salford), 25 (Warrington), 16 (Catalans) and 27 (Harlequins).
But we've only scored 128 points; 16 (Wigan), 56 (Salford), 18 (Warrington), 22 (Catalans) and 16 (Harlequins).

So for the past three years our defence is getting worse, and our attack hasn't improved from last year. For the past three years we have won fewer games at the start of the season. Whatever Royce's trying to get them to do, the players aren't doing it and it's showing in the stats.

To be fair, we have had other problems to deal with; i.e. Kyle Eastmond, but this is no excuse for the lack of defence that is being shown. Whatever has been tried to do in the first five games is not working and needs to be changed before we find ourselves towards the bottom of the table and fighting for a playoff place.

Major concern for me our defence. The question mark was always going to be over whether Simmons can improve our defence and he needs to be given time. Usually you can see the work on the training field during the game particularly in defence i.e. Brown, Smith, Anderon and Maguire all had almost instantaneous positive impacts upon their team's defence. It is something we should be working night and day on because at the moment we seem off the pace in defence and rarely win collisions without the ball which is also proving to be a huge problem for us near our own line.

The other concern for me is have we misplaced our guts because it's the one thing that has typified our disaplays over the past two years. On several occasions we showed great guts especially last year in, winning in situations where we shouldn't and it was in evidence in our season opener against Wigoon. It's gone missing since then.

Prior to this weekend I was pretty confident of overturning Leeds and now I'm anticipating defeat. Perhaps playing away will work in our favour with the pressure being off us and on them with McDermott struggling too. Whatever the case we have a reasonable run of winnable games after that which might buy Simmons more time before the fans turn on him.

It's concerning but still early days yet so there is plenty of time for us to improve.

I have a different take on it I guess. It's not the defense that is really the problem. That just comes from having too many young and inexperienced players in key positions.

What is costing us is our attack. Pointless at half time for the second consecutive time. We again got in more than enough decent positions but wouldn't threaten a National League team. The corresponding dynamism, inventiveness and sharpness of the Quins attack tonight to ours was the most glaring aspect of it. Our defense was tested and conceded 27 points, theirs simply wasn't tested enough. We don't threaten from outside the opposition 20 at all anymore, which makes things a hell of a lot more comfortable for our opponents.

We,ve always been slow starters and usually start to rise up the table around April month.
This season is different, as we have not had a settled half back partnership since August 2010, I can't see this situation improving until around June month.
That means we will hovering around the top 8 cut off and possibly only moving up the table in the last 10 games.

Off topic
But why is Foster getting 10min at the end of games I feel and this is only my opinion but last night when he came on we looked more dangerous that at any other time and against wire at end of game he was givin his all he just seems to bring us some energy which is more than can be said for the rest of em!

We trudged back out for 2nd half looking like the couldn't be d while quins all jogged back out up for it and looked like athletes. We looked like we wanted to go home.

Not happy!

Yes it is. Last night Harlequins RL found it pretty easy to make it to the halfway line whenever they had possession which meant that were were constantly taking the ball up from within our 20m line. We rarely showed an ability to meet them in the tackle and stop them. We need to toughen up in the middle because the easy yards are sucking us in and then letting teams throw the ball out wide as demonstrated last night and against Warrington.

Defence is certainly a problem - but not in and of itself. From what I saw last night the root cause of the defensive problem is a worrying absence of team spirit. I think the loss of Eastmond, the bulldozing of the ground, the retirement of Cunningham and the continued question lingering over Graham (who is now the sole leader with any kind of gravitas) hitting Saints one after the other over a very short period have had the cumulative effect of arresting the club's emotional heartbeat.

The players appear disorientated and without purpose or passion. Unless McManus finds a way to deliver some kind of stimulus - a shot in the arm like a big signing, or securing Graham's future I have an awful feeling that things will become much worse. The nightmare scenario is Graham announcing shortly that he will be leaving. In our current state such news would be catastrophic - especially for the confidence of the younger players. Indeed, I'd be tempted to keep the whole thing quiet.

I agree that our attack is stunted, but the Quins players aren't any better than ours, but the way the ball is moved from one side to the other is sooooo much better. That's training park stuff for me.

I think that backs up Mugwump's point. Quins are currently a team on an absolute high. Nobody expected them to do anything other than fight for the spoon, yet they're at the top, and beating Leeds and Saints away from home. Saints, on the other hand, started the year with high expectations which have been, to put it bluntly, crushed. One of the much-vaunted front row in Perry misses the first month. Pryce injured again. More than anything else, the Eastmond saga. Suddenly, the team which we thought was going to be dominating on the back of an international front row and an international half-back combination finally able to take control, finds itself without its front row and losing its half-backs. Add to that the fact that being homeless is hardly conducive to good times, and you've got a crashing lack of confidence.

Confident teams are far more likely to be expansive in attack than negative ones. You can always tell a team when it stops believing in itself : one-man rugby, trying to avoid risks, and not being in the right place to even make the moves work because you expect them not to, so there's no point bothering.

Saints are psychologically in a poor way. We do need an injection of confidence, and that's why it's so poor, I think, that Eastmond is likely to be with us all season. His presence is now probably counter-productive in every way, focusing on the past and what is being lost, rather than building on the future, and will get worse as the relations between him and a lot of the fans becomes a running sore. I think it could be a long hard season unless we manage to shift it around. Problem is, I don't really see Royce Simmons as the man who can do that.

I think overall - defence, attack, kicking game and team spirit - our quality has been pretty poor this season. Take out the Salford game, in which they were horrendously bad, and weve really struggled to score points. We lack organisation with the ball and look completely rudderless and lack leadership. We don't seem to have any planned moves, don't use dummy runners effectively and our halves don't take the line on enough. Maybe it's a confidence thing? Maybe they're being coached that way? Maybe (in the case of Eastmond) he simply doesn't want to do it? I'm not sure, but the halves are doing the basic things wrong at the moment. They're not drawing defenders and creating space for the runners and they're not taking a great deal of responsibility for our attack. The forwards also aren't offering enough at the moment. We don't seem to be running at the defence hard enough, they're not offloading the ball and they're not winning the collision which creates half breaks and 2nd phase play for others. Where is the support play? Overall, it's massively concerning how blunt we are in attack at the moment, kind of similar to how we were at the back end of 2009, but worse. We're far too one out and it's like the halves don't trust themselves and the forwards certainly don't trust the halves. Eastmond has to step up, he is the experienced half back of the two out there currently. So far his performances have been really poor. Gaskell has tried hard, but he is out of his depth at the moment.

Defensively we look really poor. Considering we had supposedly worked on this more than anything throughout the off season, I was expecting alot more. Maguire made Wigan play with incredible defensive determination last year. Their line speed was fast, they hit hard and they got numbers in the tackle. I don't see us winning the collision and it seems half hearted. There is no real attitude to want to donminate in defence, there's no back slapping for big hits, there's nothing, it just seems very half hearted at times. IMO, we defend too narrowly and get beaten too easily outwide. I could understand this approach if we were dominating in defence up the middle, but we're not.

I mentioned the team spirit because at the moment, we just look like a team that has no confidence and aren't playing for one another. On Friday, there didn't seem to be any real fight until periods of the 2nd half and the Wigan game apart, we haven't really showed that determined attitude and spirit which saved us a point that night. There was only James Graham rallying the troops, the rest were really quiet.

The players need to show more and the coach eneds to show more. Saints used to be renowend for their flair, their fighting spirt, but at the moment we're showing neither. If we're not winning that's fine, but I like to see the team fight and perform for themselves, their team mates and the fans. I didn't get that feeling against Warrington or against Quins. I'm intrigued to see if there's any difference against Leeds. I expect a more determined performance, win or lose.

That's because we don't have cunningham anymore and Pryce is out injured. There wasn't anyone else in our team who could lead. That was identified last season, and by people on here. Which leaders have the club recruited in the off season?


We do have planned moves. We had a beauty in the friendly against Hudds, which saw Wheeler sweep in an arc out of a scrum taking the Hudds defenders completely by surprise and he scored. A wonderful play. Have we seen that move since? No. We have only seen Wheeler once since!


Yup. Surely that is because there is no Leon Pryce there? He was positively masterful in our friendlies, untile he went off injured. We have seen him for five minutes since then. Meanwhile, we have Kyle Eastmond who for the first couple of weeks was getting back into the game after a long layoff and now cannot be bothered, and another halfback who has been thrown into the deep end without the benefit of an experienced and attentive halfback partner. On Friday we didn't even have Wilkin as a strike option or creative input. He's been very good at loose forward this season so far.


Again, no Cunningham. He was a massive influence on our go forward. Remember how he used to lift the team when he came on? Now we have Jammer on his own out there in effect, as a leader that is. And he's taken to playing at halfback recently again, which is unfortunate. LMS of course was absent on Friday. We might have made more impact with him on the pitch.


Watching the highlights from Catalans, it was great. But it didn't fire at all at Widnes.


We are poor, but no worse than last season so far as I can work out, but I haven't checked the stats. What Simmons wants is to go from shipping 20 points on average a game to 16, as he thinks that is the difference between a good team and a Grand Final winning team. I would agree with him. So far we have had two games I think where we have let only 16 points in. We could have included Salford in that had we not been lazy at the end. But what is the biggest score against us this season?


Oh dear. Here's that Maguire thing again. We don't have Maguire as our coach. Why are you comparing?


At Widnes we do, yes. But we didn't at Cardiff, we didn't at Salford and according to those who went there, we didn't at Perpignan either. We fought hard at Cardiff and Perpignan (we didn't need to at Salford) and held on well. Perhaps the problem is at Widnes, in front of the home fans?


We did in Cardiff and apparently we did in Perpignan. I think you need to stop panicking!

When Royce first arrived he said he wanted to reduce our points against which I can't see happening.

well we're averaging more against already!

Yes, we are. We wouldn't have been had we not allowed Salford to score, which is pretty much what we did in 2010 (they only scored 6 against us). Mind you, in the first match of last season we shipped 32 points, and so far our biggest shipment has been 27!

In 2011 our average for the first five games is 21.2 against
In 2010 our average for the first five games was 18.8 against
In 2009 our average for the first five games was 10.4 against

so you agree that potter did better that royce has