He's no definite position, which has probably worked against him playing time wise these last few seasons. Forwards did alright today, but we had nothing on the end of it, which is understandable with the players we're missing. Today proved that Wigan aren't up to much to me, if we had a full team it would have been very different as they were only missing O'Loughlin who would have contributed to a better Wigan side.

Mugwump, you are being overly defensive.

Call the loss what it was and saying x and y player were not up to it is not the same as turning on the team.

There has been a change in opinions on Mose, but does that mean when he pulls on the Red V the fans don't go out there and chant his name and big him up?? No they go and support the team, no matter their personal opinions on individuals and the current strengths and weaknesses of the team.

For god sake I chanted Meli's name every match I went to even though I thought he should have been dropped a few times over the years. There is a difference between being critical over one game and showing a lack of confidence in the team over all and not supporting them on game day.

I put us in the top 2 teams of SL, others put us in the top 3 of SL. That's hardly saying we are no good. We are not gonig to be a Wakefield and a few more points secures us in the top 8. But these threads are about 1 game, if you want to evaluate the team as a whole over the course of a series of games then start a thread (call it the season so far and put your thoughts about the range of games there. But on threads called the Leeds game and the Derby people are surely able to call players for their errors in those individual games)

Pete does not rate Mose in our team and never has, he thinks he is Lazy, I disagree, but I've managed to never turn it into a personal attack or doubt people's commitment to Saints and I can agree that in the last couple of games he has not pulled in the standards we needed against 2 possible championship competitors. In big games against top sides you need your best players to more than pull their weight. Long Cunningham Sculthorpe Lyon did this in their games and even when we were pants put in a shift to try and win the game.

2nd half against Leeds I thought Mose and Savelio upped there game dramtically, but they should have been at that level 1st half and we would not have been in as deep a hole as we were.

Finally if you think we are all bagging the team include Wilkin in with us as he too has said we have made poor starts to games all season and let other teams get too far ahead. ie we are not going out with our game heads on and only putting in the effort when it suits us.

To be fair, I think he csn be good player and ive always said this but I can't accept pure bone idle players. How he can sleep at night knowing hes letting down his team mates every week especially walmsley, Amor and the three young props.

I don't like the fact jones, swift and lance get dropped for poor performances yet we have a prob that most weeks can't do more than 10 mins, doesn't get into double figures in his carries and constantly walking back with his hands on his hips! A guy the size of him should be making more meters in his avg gain but agsinst leeds it was less than 4m which is awful for a 6ft 6in 18st mobile prop.

I don't dislike him as a person and hold nothing personal against him but I can't accept his on field performances.

I agree we'll be fine. I still think we'll be the side to beat providing we have something like a fit squad.

Walmsley is a quality prop forward but I'm concerned by our obsession with using him. We run with at least five props every week and yet Walmsley alone is used for a third of our props' carries. I'd be happier seeing the workload shared and I expect it'll go that way in time.

Greenwood we're likely looking late in the season, maybe August or so I'd think. Hopefully sooner. Other than him, Vea is a similar timescale I believe, Lomax gone for the season, Percival back this week apparently and obviously Walsh good to go it seems. We're getting there slowly but I think the second rowers are a big loss. I don't think anybody expected Vea and Greenwood to have the impact they've had but with Wilkin and LMS, we should be fine anyhow.

On Wigan. I still don't see them holding their own against our pack when it comes down to it although your mobility will help you defend against out attack if it goes the way I expect it to.

I think your right about Greenwood, he seems a big loss for you. Hope he recovers well, it's a shame to see a young player injured, whoever they play for.

What has happened to Amor, is he still affected by his injury from last year?

Don't be to quick to bag Sarginsons defence. It was poor the other night, but he's still not up to speed yet after missing the start of the season. His defence got better last season and he let no one down against AUS & NZ. (From another thread I saw)

I really don't have anything more to offer. Defeats and sticky patches are a statistical certainty. Especially when teams are suffering from injuries, swtich-arounds etc. etc. Futhermore, teams which are all-conquering mid-season often start to fade at the dénouement. I shouldn't need to tell you any of this. But nevermind.

If you care to check back - I predicted we'd likely experience a dip in form right before the Wigan game. I said <paraphrase> "It's important we don't lose our nerve" </paraphrase>

Ultimately, whether some or all of you wish to run for the hills in hysteria is really none of my concern. I've never been one to be influenced by the council of fools so you'll forgive me if, instead of joining you, I unfold my deck-chair, settle down and thumb my way through a good book.

I'll keep the kettle warm for when you all come scurrying back at the end of the season, whereupon, fully-fit side (or close to), it'll be Old Trafford once again.

Ta Ta.