Not being picky but, I think there's 12 or 13 in scholarship from Brook. There's some from Orrell, a couple from Clock and I think there's some from out of the area. I recon saints will dominate the north west matches at this age group.

Wigan have produced great kids each and every year of the sixteen we've been running SL.

Number of titles: 2.

Well exactly. Having a great academy and producing good quality youngsters is a big part of producing a title winning side, but like I say it's only part of the process. The culture, coach and experienced heads at the club all have an equally huge part to play. Up to Madge's arrival we were always struggling in at least one of those area's if not more.

The funny thing is Wigan have been far more successful at producing players in positions which are absolutely crucial to winning the title (mostly the pack). Aside from Graham (and possibly Clough, who is half-back row half prop) our academy has failed miserably insofar as big men are concerned. I'm not saying Wigan are producing world beaters - but they have consistently churned out solid, grafting props which are the platform for any side with title-winning aspirations. How many quality back row forwards have Saints produced in the past twenty years. How many have Wigan produced?

If SL was decided by academy strength alone Wigan would have probably won three times as many titles. The fact that they have won only two suggests having a good academy is not and never will be essential.

Couldn't disagree more, an absolutely ridiculous statement IMO. Bringing through your own quality youngsters is vital to a teams chances. Just look at the sides that have won and dominated the SL competition since it's inception. Bradford for starters brought through some terrific youngsters at the time of their success. From Fielden and Pryce to Peacock and Deacon.

The current Leeds team are where they are because of the superb group of youngsters they brought through together earlier this decade.

St Helens wouldn't be where they are today if the likes of Wellens and Cunigham hadn't come through your system, and you certainly wouldn't be continuing to challenge for honors this year if your academy hadn't brought through the likes of Gaskel, Lomax and Foster.

It's the fact that the lower sides in SL struggle to produce good quality youngsters in any great numbers that stops them progressing up the table.

Well, let's test your theory. Out of St. Helens and Wigan which club - over the entirety of SL - has produced more SL quality players. I'd say Wigan. I'd even stretch to a tie. But nothing more.

Number of Wigan titles: 2.
Number of Saints titles: 5

Indeed, I'd argue Wigan have produced more SL players than Leeds and Bradford.

Number of Leeds titles: 5
Number of Bulls titles: 4.

I'm not denigrating youth development. But to suggest such is "essential" does not seem in line with results.

It's a huge part but not the only part of creating a title winning side IMO. It was the other parts of the jigsaw that Wigan lacked that probably cost us a title or two. The constant chopping and changing of coach and in turn poor culture at the club was more than detrimental to our chances.

Your almost suggesting that Saints could still challenge for honors next year if the likes of Lomax, Gaskel and Makinson hadn't come through your academy. Something I severely doubt. As I would Wigan's chances if we took the likes of Sam, Joel, Charnley and Mossop out of the Wigan side.

Bradford are on the slide in part because of their distinctly average youngsters coming through, coupled with a few other things of course. Saints like Bradford have lost a lot of their best and most experienced players of late, but because of your far superior academy you've been able to overcome their departures.

Really? Props coming through their academy? I'm struggling to think of many as most of their props have come from others clubs e.g. Platt (which was over twenty years ago anyway), Cowie, O'Connor. There may have been plenty coming through during the history days but that production line has dried up and not just there but everywhere.



Perhaps a better way of assessing the "essential-ness" of academies would be to evaluate the performance of teams with weaker academies in comparison to stronger ones. You can use the pies in your argument but why didn't you use Leeds who had a strong academy system which has recently reaped rewards? By using the pies and not considering others you are presenting only a snippet of fact which isn't necessarily truth.

Let's not kid ourselves.

Madge came in with a specific gameplan (one which nearly every coach in super league has a dig at when they say ''and they play the game in the right way'' when referring to saints/warrington/leeds), but none of the methods he brought in were maintable or condusive to long term success, and couldn't be executed without experienced heads in certain positions, hence the reason he has barely bloodied any new youngsters this season. Already this season teams began to work it out.

I fully expect normal service to resumed next season, in fact it already has this season as wigan failed to make the grand final.

Well you've had madge for 2 years an already a new coach is coming in. How long do you reckon wane will last?

Poor culture you say?

The thing with culture is it's something built over time. Madge can't just come in wave his magic wand and alter the culture at the club.

He came in and gave you a gameplan to win a title. Now it's past it's sell by date.