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[quote="Saintly Linda":3ag7a8xz]Damm your a good bloke to know!![/quote:3ag7a8xz] [quote="**Claire**":3ag7a8xz]You my friend are a LEGEND! :D :D[/quote:3ag7a8xz] //www.myspace.com/chrisokeeffe:15922.jpg



Quote: D.D. "It means it's more entertaining than Super League but still nowhere near as entertaining as the Rugby League we once knew and loved.

I have to agree with you young man, through my new relationship i've been to maybe 9/10 Roughyeds games this year in CC1 and each of them has been dramatically more entertaining than Super League. Conversely, the delectable Mrs has been to a dozen Saints games and the only ones she found remotely passionate or entertaining were Leeds & Wigan games and this was mainly because of the atmosphere and not the rugby on show.

Never before in 17 years of supporting Saints have i felt I’d rather be at home watching on TV, at KR I did a few times last year, I found myself turning Sky games off when Saints weren't involved too, because it was just slow, dull & repetitive (something most of us will have called rugby union for being exactly the same over the years)

Yes maybe Championship games are played by lesser athletes with less skill but they are played with at least equal passion & commitment, this from part time player’s who are paid peanuts in comparison. Teams actually try to score on every set, they look to make breaks & create tries at any opportunity, there is a bit of biff and its all smiles in the bar at the end.

I know a lot on here & RedVee blame Potter for most if not all of Saints in 2009 and won't be happy until he is sacked. I won't deny he is at least partly accountable for our style of play & results last season. But at the same time had we thrown the ball about behind the sloth like play the ball & it had backfired as defences got on the front foot & smashed us, the same people would have been equally derogatory about him, probably complaining that that we weren't doing the grinding out up the middle enough!

Under the refereeing directives all the coaches had to find the most effective way to play within the rules – despite everything Potter wasn't exactly miles away from success & given weaker squad than 2005-8 & the injuries we actually did very well, and while it was in very grim fashion, we certainly weren’t much less entertaining than most other clubs based on all the games I saw last season.

It was appalling at times for most fans, ref’s were letting players lie on for 5 seconds, then let them get to their feet slowly while holding the ball carrier, it sucked the life out of the game, defences were always set, breaks in normal play were seldom, getting the ball out wide was punished because lines had time to be up out wide before the ball got there, there were fewer gaps as players had longer breaks between tackles – teams were forced to go up the middle or they went backwards.

There are other ways to stop good teams getting on a roll like Saints / Leeds used to without spoiling the flow of a game and ultimately the highest level of competition in general in 2009 was the worst for entertainment value in memory.

Note to the RFL / things I’d like to see brought in for 2010 (in no order of priority):

1.) Teams kicking dead from sometimes from their own half to slow the game down (even more) – I’d go further than Clarke on this & make this a hand over from where the ball was kicked (similar to union), meaning ball will be in play more and more skill required when kicking.

2.) Instead of having to have touch judges in position & the ball on the centre spot, have some consistency and allow teams quick taps as soon as all attacking players on side and the ball is “roughly" in the centre of the pitch - splitting hairs over 1 foot either way is pedantic & unnesseceraily painful (take note Ian Smith)

3.) Play the ball to take no longer than a count of 2 from completed tackle, completed from referee calling “held” / carrier on the floor – obviously speed to be dictated by attacking team – if they want to cock about its their choice.

4.) Penalties for slowing the play down, offside, holding down, flopping, hands in the ruck etc – 3rd penalty warning, 4th penalty sin bin – no excuses or leniency for anyone.

These changes are just off the top of my head and would vastly speed the game back up make it vastly more open & allow for teams to vary attack to try and win games rather than a grind fest.

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Quote: FearTheVee "You appear to only see one side to "quality". Quality isn't just attacking, quality is defending too.

And quality defending means better quality attacking is required. In SL at the moment, the good defences are on top. It has happened before in the NRL, but the balance is forever changing and some of the attacking rugby in the NRL this season was breathtaking, far better than the apparently halcyon days of 90s league in the UK.

You seem to have an incredibly rose tinted memory of the past. Some of the games were just as dull and duller.

Give me games like Aus/NZ the other week and Leeds/Saints over the last few years over a 40-36 scoreathon any day.'"


I can't speak for DD but certainly i am not for one second suggesting games have to be scoreathons to be exciting.

Some games from the past were dull but they were a minority compared to two thirds of games being dull last season

I love good defence, conceding 0 to me is better than scoring 60. But i don't really agree that defences are on top, not when it is being exaggerated by slowing the attack down to make it easier for the defending team.

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Quote: FearTheVee "You appear to only see one side to "quality". Quality isn't just attacking, quality is defending too.

And quality defending means better quality attacking is required. In SL at the moment, the good defences are on top. It has happened before in the NRL, but the balance is forever changing and some of the attacking rugby in the NRL this season was breathtaking, far better than the apparently halcyon days of 90s league in the UK.

You seem to have an incredibly rose tinted memory of the past. Some of the games were just as dull and duller.

Give me games like Aus/NZ the other week and Leeds/Saints over the last few years over a 40-36 scoreathon any day.'"


As I said, "quality" is not the same as "entertainment". I'm not a complete village idiot. I am aware that the quality of defending is significantly better than it ever has been.

I have never said the "quality" used to be better but the "entertainment" was. It's nothing to do with rose tinted spectactles. Anyone can see that the game has evolved into a very different game than it was ten years ago. Anyone can see that the predominant tactic has changed to ploughing it down the middle and securing territory. Anyone can see that the flair half backs, centres and wingers have all but disappeared. Anyone can see that long range tries are largely a thing of the past. They are stone wall facts. The game is different.

The brand of rugby that was formerly played is very different than now. I enjoyed free-flowing, attack based Rugby League, with teams looking to score whenever possible. I'm not a fan of conservative, safety first Rugby League.

I have my own written reports of every game dating back twenty years. Those reports signify my love of the game. They talk enthusiastically about the entertaining day that I had. They don't anymore. So at least I have some contemporary evidence to back me up.

Maybe it's you who has a distorted version of events rather than me. icon_wink.gif

There were low scoring games in the past you know? A look at things will tell you that there were significantly less points per game on average in the period between 1990 and 1993 than there was in the period between 2006 and 2008. The 4-5 and 8-8 games against Wigan though still involved people trying to move the ball about.

The Australia-New Zealand game was more more like that kind of era. The close games in Super League of late don't even resemble the same sport sometimes.

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Quote: D.D. "As I said, "quality" is not the same as "entertainment". I'm not a complete village idiot. I am aware that the quality of defending is significantly better than it ever has been.'"


Didn't want to sound condescending, I've no doubt you've watched more RL than me (I'm 2icon_cool.gif. But I remember watching some truly horrible games during winter rugby. They were not all about throwing the ball about, there was lots and lots of "up the jumper" dour rugby, as the conditions demanded it.

Quote: D.D. "I have never said the "quality" used to be better but the "entertainment" was. It's nothing to do with rose tinted spectactles. Anyone can see that the game has evolved into a very different game than it was ten years ago. Anyone can see that the predominant tactic has changed to ploughing it down the middle and securing territory. Anyone can see that the flair half backs, centres and wingers have all but disappeared. Anyone can see that long range tries are largely a thing of the past. They are stone wall facts. The game is different.'"


I personally find the brutal defense based games far, far more entertaining. Give me the big shots of the Aus/NZ game over length of the field tries due to poor defence. Plus, long range tries may be a thing of the past at Saints due to a lack of pace, but they certainly aren't at Leeds for example.

Going back 10-15 years, who were these flair half backs you speak of? I'd rather watch Tomkins and Eastmond at 6 and 7 than people like Tony Smith and loose forwards playing 6 like we saw then for GB.

Is, for example, Eastmond any less exciting than a young Sean Long?

Quote: D.D. "The brand of rugby that was formerly played is very different than now. I enjoyed free-flowing, attack based Rugby League, with teams looking to score whenever possible. I'm not a fan of conservative, safety first Rugby League.'"


Fair play

Quote: D.D. "I have my own written reports of every game dating back twenty years. Those reports signify my love of the game. They talk enthusiastically about the entertaining day that I had. They don't anymore. So at least I have some contemporary evidence to back me up. '"


Maybe you were a different person 20 years ago to what you are now? Maybe RL played a more important part in your life?

Quote: D.D. "There were low scoring games in the past you know? A look at things will tell you that there were significantly less points per game on average in the period between 1990 and 1993 than there was in the period between 2006 and 2008. '"


I would expect so, given the games were played in the depths of winter in often terrible conditions.

Quote: D.D. "The 4-5 and 8-8 games against Wigan though still involved people trying to move the ball about. '"


As do the close games these days.

Quote: D.D. "The Australia-New Zealand game was more more like that kind of era. The close games in Super League of late don't even resemble the same sport sometimes.'"


The Australia-New Zealand is more like this era because, well, it IS this era.

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In response to FeartheVee

Didn't want to sound condescending, I've no doubt you've watched more RL than me (I'm 2icon_cool.gif. But I remember watching some truly horrible games during winter rugby. They were not all about throwing the ball about, there was lots and lots of "up the jumper" dour rugby, as the conditions demanded it.

There were horrible games because of the weather, yes, but it may be worth noting that we have had considerably more rain at games in the Friday night era than we ever had during the Sunday games in winter. I can honestly say, especially since St. Helens Town moved in, the pitch has been more of a mud-bath in the early and late season months than it ever was during the winter months in the late 80s/early 90s.

I personally find the brutal defense based games far, far more entertaining. Give me the big shots of the Aus/NZ game over length of the field tries due to poor defence. Plus, long range tries may be a thing of the past at Saints due to a lack of pace, but they certainly aren't at Leeds for example.

I'm sorry but if you find big hits more entertaining than teams playing with the actual ball then maybe you should start watching boxing or bloody WWF.

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Quote: Mugwump "Have you ever considered the possibility that it's you rather than the game that's changed?'"



I would prefer to discuss it with someone who actually goes to the game.

Of course the game has changed and not for the better.

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