My thoughts entirely.

I have supported Leeds for over 50 years and had I only been pleased when we won silverware I would had a most unhappy time - as indeed would supporters from every other team over the years as purple patches never last for ever.

Its the game I love first and foremost. To have witnessed the spectacle of so many great players, from different clubs, parading their skills has given me the most pleasure and excitment - win or lose. It is the brilliant individual skills of players that I recall more than our captain of the day holding up a trophy.

Of course its great to win but sport is about much more than that. Rugby League is in the entertainments business and I could never except boring rugby as a price for winning trophies.

Its all about the quality of the play and skill of the players and why we should always allow our creative players the freedom to make mistakes. I recall occassions when a player like John Holmes for instance had made a mistake with a pass or kick, but was aplauded by a knowledgable section of the crowd who had realised that he was trying to achieve something special.

I don't have problems with 'special' players - just that I've seen far too many do flash things for Leeds whilst the team's won nothing. McGuire I'd class as a special player that's done both. I watch Leeds to see them win - its sport not dancing, and I'd take an ugly year and GF win like 2009 over any 'pretty rugby no win' season any day of the week. Each to their own.

This is the unsubstantiated hyperbole surrounding Buderus that makes me chuckle.

McShane and Hood have been at Leeds a long time, they've been scouted extensively by Leeds, they've been coached by Leeds coaching staff through all junior levels but if both go on to be part of a successful side* it will all be down to an an Antipodean player who spent 3 season's art the club, none of which were spent on the coaching staff. The success of their entire careers will be down to rubbing shoulders with Buderus in the dressing room. In a similar vein Kevin Sinfileld should be down on his knees thanking Bradley Clyde for his entire Leeds career.

Pass me the sick bucket.

*If they go on to be pat of a successful side it will be great. We'll have one of our own developed players at 9 enjoying team success in a team environment. What an innovative idea. If only we'd done it before.

That's not his logic at all. He has said, as I have many times, that Buderus is a class act.

His logic is simple. He'd rather watch a successful team than an unsuccessful team with the odd super talented individual playing within it.

And what is it you think we do not agree on?

That's just your opinion Gareth. It's not a true situation but your opinion. The club and players have gone at lengths to mention the amount of work they do with Buderus. The club identified Buderus to come in specifically for that role. Only last week McShane was giving interviews on the amount of work he has done with Buderus.

Oh and Hood hasn't been at Leeds a long time, he was initially part of the Bradford academy, but identified by Leeds as a future star and speficifically to work with Buderus. Both players signing in 2008, although of course Buderus arrived for 2009 season.

Young players will learn from whoever they come into contact with ..... good and bad.

If I were to hazard a wild guess at McShane's rapid progress in the role recently I might be tempted to point a finger in the direction of the new Leeds assistant coach. Radical or what?

Oh.?

Shanter.?

Good thread this.?

It's the one you've missed off the list.

The overall benefit to Leeds Rhinos RLFC of signing Danny Buderus.

Had not thought of that, an extremely valid point! I guess McShane & Hood [ishould[/i be in good hands whilst 2 of the best hookers of the modern era are in situ

being. ?

Indeed.

None of us can say definitively whether it's down to the player's own individual talent and work rate, the influence of a team mate, the influence of a new coach or the increased opportunities in the first team (opportunities which could have come sooner had the antipodean not been signed).

To say any success McShane or Hood might achieve in the future is Buderus's' "legacy" is quite simply unsustainable fantasy.

I see. I suspect you are right and we will not agree on that.

So do you now recognise that I have never argued the proposition that "Buderus cannot ever be considered as good as Diskin unless he wins 4 grand finals"

Of course they do work with him. They do work with Kirke and Bailey. They all work together. Is Buderus on the coaching staff?

Is this a fact or your opinion?

In the context of Hood, a young player who hasn't yet made the first team, being on Leeds books for four years is a long time. You're saying he's a player Leeds had clearly scouted before they signed him and has been with them for years. Haven't you kind of proven my point?