Great recall.

Smith was villified and crucified on here between 2006 and right up to the 2007 GF before he made a lot of posters look silly. Far too much credit was given to Mcdermott by many posters for Smith's successes. probably the same posters now villifying and crucifying McDermott.

Substandard.com is certainly more lively when we're in bad form than good.

This has been an interesting debate, and in truth there is no definitive answer.

Its like trying to say who is the best scientific mind in history. Some say Einstein, some say Newton, some say Gallileo. The truth is that without the work of the people who were there first (who moved things forward so much) they wouldn't have been able to do their job as well as they did.

Powell took a club that had won very little with a very expensive and underperforming squad and dismantled it and threw in the promising youngsters who still form the core of the squad

Smith took a squad with good ability, but massive potential and created a winning culture build upon togetherness. He also played a brand of rugby not seen since.

McClennan took a team of players who had the ability, and the experience of winning and got the best out of them. He didn't need to be the best coach because the players had become used to winning. However, they needed to be made to beleive they would win, and needed to be inspired. Bluey was a people guy, and took a team that would otherwise not have had the hunger and got them to perform again and again.

McDermott came in when it was clear that the lack of structure and boundries were becoming a problem. I think he maintained the spirit and togetherness of the club, whilst re-introducing the structure.

Bringing in Smith when we brought in POwell would unlikely have worked, same for all the other appointments. the key to the coaches wasn't just their skills it was the timing. In a salary caped sport where in theory everyone can spend the same, the real difference maker can be the coach. Get the right coach (Skills, or motivator, or structure provider etc) and the quality group of players you have should be able to compete and win.

Other things that have occurred to me whilst reading this thread:
Before 2008, only Saints had won SL back to back.
Before 2008, no coach had won the SL back to back.
Before 2008, no club had won the WCC and SL in the same calendar year.
Before 2009, no club had won SL 3 times on the bounce.
Bluey and McDermott both achieved #1-3.
Bluey achieved #4. McDermott may still achieve it too

In 2005/6 when McDermott left, and things started to go wrong at Leeds, many on here were suggesting that he was the brains behind Leeds. I have no idea whether he was or not, but people have short memories.

In Smiths tenure we saw very similar baffling decisions in the lineup. Lauiti'iti and JJB at prop, Senior selected at Cardiff, Young players (Scruton, Gibson, Smith etc) not given a good chance in the first team. Cummins played a hell of a lot in 2004, before Calderwood eventually nailled down his place. McDonald & Feather regulars in the team despite performances which make Kirke look impressive. We saw long losing streaks in 2005 and 2006, but what we remember is the nights like 2004 and 2007 at Old Trafford. Smith was not a bad coach, he was an excellent one. But so have the two that have been in the seat since. They were just different.

Comparing coaches is pointless as the variables are too numerous.
Different squads of players - Moon vs Senior
Different ages of players - McGuire 2004 vs McGuire 2013
Different salaries of players
Different level of opposition - top 3 vs top 6
Salary cap relative to NRL and inflation

All three coaches had to work with the situation as it was at the time, and I think all three did a pretty good job, and if the next 3 coaches deliver 2 Sl titles each I'll be pretty happy

In other news I hear that McGuire has broken his fibula.

Yeah i know that, i just enjoy watching the anti-McDermott brigade get their knickers in a twist when you criticise their beloved Tony. Especially when people make out all was rosey during Smith's reign when it wasn't and that some are so hell bent on not giving McDermott any credit at all that they'd say Smith deserves more credit for the last 2 successes rather than the actual present coach.

Except it's doubtful anyone has said those things.

Smith's ability is to produce good entertaining rugby. Excellent defensive patterns and attacking structures that utilises the full width of the pitch and in both directions. He's a quality coach who produces entertaining teams who score freely.

He's brought success to two massively under achieving clubs and turned the fortunes around at another. His personal CV is full having coached teams to GF, CC, LLS and WCC.

A fact clearly reflected in his trophy haul from 2005 to date.

And the rest.



Does the live salary cap allow for the obvious pre-loading of contracts in such a manner? To be honest I thought there were regulations in place to prevent such abuses.

I can see the issues around backloading a contract, I can’t see what the issue the game would have with front-loading the contract like that would be?

As far as I am aware there is no provision to pay a player more in the first than last year of the contract, im not sure what the expected gain from there being so would be?

The salary cap regs do say that for cap audit purposes, reward for services across the length of a contract can be spread pro-rata between the salary cap years covered by that contract, rather than being based on when the salary was received by the player.

So if you agreed to pay a player £100k in year one, then £50k per year for years two, three and four, the RFL could interpret that as being £62.5k per year for each of the four salary cap years.

It's how they deal with signing bonuses for cap purposes, they pro-rata them across the length of the contract.

Signing bonuses can definitely be treated that way but there isn’t any specific clause saying that salaries will be. In fact the only mention of it within the SC rules is that salaries may be looked at pro-rata if the auditor deems that the payment was accrued in that year. From the wording of the rules it appears that front-loading is permissible as long as it isn’t particularly egregious or detrimental to the player.

[ithe RSCM may decide to treat a Club’s liability to a Player for salary and/or specific payments or benefits (including but not limited to the specific cases set out in Clauses 5.6.6 and 5.6.7, below) as Accruing on a pro rata basis across all or part of the term of the Player’s Playing Contract, if the RSCM believes that such payment or benefit is being made in consideration for services rendered across such term.

In reaching a decision, the RSCM will act reasonably and will take into consideration

Now i would think that (using my completely made up example) the RFL could decide the schedule of payments unreasonable, you could easily argue that schedule of payments perfectly reasonable for a player who is declining, as well being to the benefit of the player by offering the safety of a guaranteed longer contract at their age. Maybe for Kirke the figures may seem a little excessive, but certainly for Peacock for example, you could argue that his market value was high, rapidly declining and as an ageing player he was benefitting from the security of a guaranteed longer contract.

Saying that I expect we will see a pretty significant overhaul of the SC in 2015 anyway and it will all be a bit irrelevant by then.

McGuire will be back in 8 weeks max. according to McDermott.

Vickery is a fabulous winger and deserves his repeated selection. according to McDermott.

Don`t try and change the subject whilt they are debating who is the best coach Leeds have had.
What do you think this subject is all about?

Like most subjects, it's about his determination to post things that shout "LOOK AT ME EVERYONE", irrespective of anything else in the thread.