No. Its easier to ignore the cup altogether.

I do agree with the fact that Leeds seem to lack a real structure to the attack in the opposition 20. I think what DHM and others are saying, whilst seeming to disagree partially is actually the same thing. Why three forward drives before even thinking about passing? Why no genuine dummy runners on every play? Its all about structure, and for years I've found it hard to understand why a team with potentially four playmakers on the field at any time looks so much more comfortabkle making plays a long way out than near the line.

Having said that, I do think that we lack a real power forward close to the line - I doubt very much if any decent SL team is that worried when Peacock, Leuluai or any other of our forwards get the ball 'on the charge' near the line.

I don't see too much disagreement overall. I agree with you that we don't offer a forward threat near the line, my view is that the big guys up the middle don't offer an offload threat and we don't have a hooker who can power over from a dominant PTB on the line (I do think it's rare that any big guy hammers over right up the middle), and we don't get our strong back rowers (Ablett and Delaney) in the position to run over half backs out wide near the line either.

It is strange that our playmakers seem to run out of options near the opposition line, I guess you do have to factor in the reduced attacking space and the defence intensifies and has less distance to retreat, but we spent this season unable to convert field position and general domonance in the game into points. A lot has been said about how many games we lost by less than a score, but you could say the opposite - how many games we won by far less of a margin than we should have and how many of those games we lost by less than a score should have been put to bed if we'd been able to score points more freely.
All points to an attacking structure not maximising the talent we have out wide for a lot of the reasons mentioned (I don't think it's just one thing).

You make the problems out to be injuries - injuries are a part of the game, it didn't stop Saints who arguably had more severe injuries to more key players? How would Leeds have gone without Hardaker, Sinfield and Ablett for a big chunk of the season?

Do you think with an ageing squad the injury situation will get better or worse? IMO the situation will worsen - one of my considerations as to why the team will not make the four. As you have already shown in your excuses post the depth of the squad is was simply not there last year so how is that going to improve this year with the addition of one player?

The point about the CC is mute in my view - some like you use it as an reason for the poor form at the end of the season but it doesn't explain the poor form from May to August - I suppose the excuse is injuries!!

The Wigan thing - the platform was set as soon as Bateman stood up JP in game one - Wane saw the soft underbelly, he exposed it in game two which was an embarrassment as a very weak Wigan side showed who was physically going to boss the game. The third game wasn't even a contest. No team in SL have the aggressive culture that Wigan have - no team has a McIllorum that will lead from the front in such a confrontational manner. That is why Warrington and Cas couldn't do that in the cup.

The first half of the season is irrelevant in this argument IMO - the second have is the most tangible evidence we have of where the team is - with all the players fit and something on the line at home the team could no longer perform.

With ageing players performances are going drop off in the second half of the season. You cannot reverse the laws of physics especially with an average quality squad which relies on old players being on the field a lot.

You also fail to address the quality of the coaching and his ability to motivate the squad to deliver. There is only so long that players can listen to the same message and respond positively. Has our attack improved under McDermott? have we developed any new plays?

Most on here believe Leeds "toss it off" through the season, I don't buy that I think 5/6th is realistically where we are as squad and I don't see anything that has happened in the close season to change that view.

ATEOTD we lost 10 games ,finished 6th and went out of the play offs with a wimper at the first hurdle that is not good enough and no amount of stats , line ups or past victories/failures will make it good enough either.
Yes injuries/suspensions play a part but ST's showed they can be overcome irrespective of opinions about Teams allegedly "tossing it off" or not taking some fixtures as seriously as others.
It was great to see the stalwarts finally get the CC winners medal but it doesn't take away how poor we were in the SL for the last 3 months.
The squad needs freshening up and and so does the Coaching staff whether we suffered 4 point losses or 14 point losses doesnt really matter in the grand scheme of things a lot of the "performances" were one dimensional and lacked quality ,skill & the ability to adapt during a game to change tactics.
JP has been a great servant a real God amongst men and we also have so many Club Legends/immortals still here but age is catching up with some more than others and IF changes aren't done this year AND next i think it will set us back 2/3 years or worse especially if we have to replace 4-5 or 6 KEY players at once.

We couldn't agree more!

kindest regards,

Wigan & Saints (replaced 14 players between them in 2014) xxx

No I don't make the problems out to be injuries alone, but they're a consideration. Think most would agree that Saints had things fall nicely for them in the playoffs. After they beat us at Langtree they picked up just 3 more points than us in the remainder of the year and we threw away 4 vs London and Bradford to concentrate on the cup.....Ooops sorry forgot we can't mention the cup as it shouldn't be a factor. Hey did anybody read the article on Kyle Amor on the YEP when he said.....

"The front rower also felt Leeds did injury-ravaged Saints a favour by knocking them out of the Challenge Cup. He said

Of course we'll pick up injuries, will they be as bad as this year, who knows? I seriously doubt we'lol lose both starting hookers at the same time for 3 months. Is the team's age mean we'll pick up more injuries? Well like you said previously Saints probably were hit harder yet they aren't known as an old team. Difference with injuries next year with the new format is that we'll see a return to previous years where players play busted more whereas McDermott tried resting this year. That btw the way is something that will happen across the board for all teams with only 4 playoff spots up for grabs.



No I mention the CC because actually getting to and winning the final DOES effect how your season pans out. It's utter stubborness and foolish from you to keep saying it should be ignored when reviewing a season. Before we played London, McDermott in an interview was asked if the team had gotten "Wembley fever" yet after beating Wire the week before, his replied that the team has had Wembley fever ever since we beat Saints in Round 5 and knew with the draw (against lower league for the next round) that we would probably be in the semis. Now I'm not saying that is right for the squad to have allowed themselves to think so far ahead when they still had a big chunk of league games to come, I'm just pointing out what the team's mindset was. Whether right or wrong, the team wanted the cup most, it was the main target, even a close friend spoke to one of the guys post Wembley who said that "all thoughts this year have been about Wembley, Wembley, Wembley."

That's gone now, it's not going to be this shadow hanging over them about whether they win it. You really can't (or shouldn't) underestimate the significance of us getting that cup win 'out of the way', whether or not people on here wanted us to win.



Like I said before, the Leeds soft underbelly thing was hardly a new thing, nor was Wigan going tough. Are you seriously saying Wane only stumbled upon this when he saw Bateman and Peacock have handbags? Doesn't that incident prove that they tried to rattle the Leeds cages at Headingley, yet they lost comfortably to us.



Well why the worry that teams will copy the blueprint if they aren't capable of playing like Wigan.



Is it? Considering how little we had anything close to our best team out I'd say it isn't.



Wasn't all fit though clearly, Moon wasn't ok by a long stretch and I don't think McGuire and Burrow had properly recovered from the injuries that kept them out post Wembley.



Yes we like to keep our main players on a lot whereas other mix it up a bit more. A lot of that is because of the top 8 system, think it'll be different from all teams now and squad depth you won't see as much across the board.



Except for when he helped deliver the trophy the aimed for most this season you mean?



I agree about there's only so long the same voice can be heard and I have said McDermott will have run his course by the end of 2015. I've address the issue will coaching on previous threads throughout the year, in fact towards the latter part of 2013 whilst most we just crying about "we're too old in the forwards" I pointed out our real flaw was execution in the final 20m, glad to see others catch up this year (likewise for when I kept saying Watkins get a free pass on this board, people now seemingly agree that he needs to shoulder some blame for his showings and not his teammates all the time).

I don't see that many games just now, but listening to the commentaries of those games we lost in the late stages of the season I could sense that in the last 10 minutes the oppositions tails went up as though they could feel that Leeds were there for the taking.

In reality you could extend this to us being poor in SL (regular rounds) every year under our current coach with league finishes of 5th,5th, 3rd and 6th

We simply have not been consistently good in regular season footy since 2009 but how we finished the 2011 and 2012 seasons with play off success ironed over a lot of the 'issues' in most peoples minds.

Put it this way had 2011 and 2012 not ended like they did (with GF success after garbage regular season campaigns)then IMO McDermott and quite a few of the current players would no longer be here as GH would have been forced to act before now

Really? That's what you're going with? F**king really???

Instead of just accepting that Leeds were better than Wigan on the day even though they'll have had a similar gameplan to Magic you come up with that?

That Wigan and Wane, who had been Wigan coach for nearly 2 and a half years at that point and a few years under McGuire as assistant when Wigan developed a reputation for their 'rough' tactics only realised and tried to be rough with Leeds after Wane saw Bateman have handbags with Peacock? The same Wane who was recorded a few months earlier giving his players free reign to create mayhem and knock people out? That he and Wigan didn't realise about Leeds' soft underbelly until that petty moment between Bateman and Peacock?

Have you been smoking drugs? Are you so obsessed with thinking, telling, spreading the news that all is rubbish at Leeds that you can come up with such a ridiculous theory?

Even those who think Leeds are in trouble next year and won't make the top 4 would surely laugh at the idea that that 'moment' and game at Headingley was some sort of realisation for Wane and Wigan as to how to approach Leeds.

If it was as simple as just replacing numbers you would have a point!
2 front line Props one of which is JP ,Sinfield ,Jjb add in Mags on his last legs and the big ?'s over Aiton like i said "KEY" players!
The way WE are structured is basically on its last legs not only that much of the "depth" isn't up to stepping or is either still very raw & learning.
The Pies play a certain way that allows players to come & go much easier the systems never change we lack that rigid structure but rely on those listed to function.
Lets also not overlook that we aren't replacing good players we are eventually losing what our success has been built on we saw what happened when Harris left that was just one player the Team also need to learn to function without the likes of JP it would be much better to get 2/3 in now and then again for 2016.

This is my biggest concern about us not bringing at least a couple in now to bed in for the inevitable retirements and moving on over the next couple of season. I truly don't expect anymore additions now though for next year going off GH's press release, he seems content, so however delusional we all feel that stance maybe, all the kicking and screaming in the world can't change it. so i will just sit back and try enjoy what will possibly be our last real chance at silverware before the big decline hits which looms ever closer.

Leeds were a side that even Wigan feared in a one off game because of their toughness especially when their back was against the wall. So there was a level of respect which meant they never took the p1ss with Leeds like they do with other sides - no cannonballs etc until game 1 after that it was open season.

I never said that Leeds weren't better than Wigan in game 1 so please read what I put before playing the "Big Man". Come on clever clogs let's hear your "definitive" reason as to why Wane in game two decided the way to beat Leeds was to ruffle their feathers? By game three Leeds were so cuckolded it was embarrassing. Wigan may well have lost the battle in game one but they sure won the war. Leeds with this squad will never be able to physically dominate the current Wigan side.

These little moments set the tone - its like a big hit it changes the tone of the game - of course you being the "expert" you are in your own mind of all things RL would have been able to see that!! Obviously that is beyond the limits of your myopic view. The bigger point was that Peacock never sorted Bateman out in game 1 he allowed Bateman to take the p1ss. That set a tone that cost Leeds - Peacock was never had the same impact.

In fairness there is very little you can do these days with an irritating little t0$$pot like Batemen that wouldn't end up in some sort of card and/or a ban. He's a tough kid though and has some talent, perhaps someone we should have looked at (maybe we did?). Certainly more promise than the long list of nobodies we have invested in over the last few years to try and fill the non existant forward pipeline from our academy.

Our forward production has been a bit underwhelming of late, but I'm not convinced by anything I've seen from him that Bateman offers anything better than we have. He plays in a better pack, but that doesn't make him a better player.