So as you've played the game, I'm sure you are aware how key it is to any game to slow the play the ball down, by getting men in the tackle, getting a man on his back and allowing the defence to get organised.

Do you watch him closely? If you are suggesting he is a passenger I would suggest you watch again. When he is on the pitch he is involved in pretty much every tackle in the middle section of the pitch when we defend.

when he's on, I think he has pretty much the highest defensive work rate. Maybe that makes him popular with the players. Do you think he would be popular with the players if he was actually work shy and coasted on the others efforts? Do you think that in the tight-nit squad we have there would be room for a player no-one respected?

He doesn't carry the ball very often. True. But he doesn't need to. We have JP, We have Delaney, we have Kylie, we have JJB. What we need is someone to come on when people start to tire who makes it as hard as possible for the opposition to get on top and get a roll on. That is the quality I think he provides, and that's why I think he's in the side.

For the last few weeks we have conceeded tries that have been as a direct result of his poor defending.

Now I accept that has not been the case previously, but it is happening more and more lately. Are you not watching closely enough? or have you not seen the games? I his previously his defence was a plus point, but definately not the last few months.

Kirke has been a scapegoat for quite a few seasons now, unjustified a lot of occassions, and at times very justified. But this season his by far and away his worst in a Leeds shirt. I don't care what he has done previously, which coach has picked him, how many rings he has, what I care about is the here and now. This year to say Kirke has been pathetic is being too generous. He should not be playing super league on this seasons performances, let alone playing for the current champions.

I

So when Delaney ,Jjb and Kylie have been absent its just down to JP is it??
A team full of youngsters when the chips were down where was "everyones mate" then?
Also i disagree again he hasn't provided the role you specified this season either out of his minutes 2 of his carris have been decent and a few tackles 3rd man in etc have been effective i have watched him and imo he isn't good enough.

According to Opta Kirke is the least effective defender among Leeds' prop options this season missing 7% of those tackles he's involved in.

Along with Moore he averages the fewest carries per game and they also make the least number of busts which is something of a concern when looking for some impact off the bench.

That said Opta this week couldn't count to four when totting up the penalties Leeds conceded and once credited Ian Kirke with kicking a 40-20 so placing too much reliance on their output isn't advisable, IMO.

Another thread that's drifted onto the subject of Kirke.....that's a shocker.

He must wish Vickery was back as he took his place for the first half of 2013 on here.

We need Mathers to return, only he has the stature to resuce Kirke.

I can accept that he has missed tackles, and that they have ended up in tries. I have never said that he should be our top 17 prop. I just point out some of the things he does which means he has a place in the squad.

For me its not about the rings he has, its about the coaches and CEOs who have continued to use him in the biggest games.

Its fairly well documented that I don't get to many games, so I don't get to see everything, but I do watch most games on sky which affords me the chance to see more detail than you do at the ground.

FWIW I am not a lover of the guy, I do think he could do more, I'm just trying to provide some balance on a topic of frequent conversation

Thats not what I am saying. What I mean is that he is not in the squad for his ball carrying ability. Expecting him to significantly up his carrying when others are out is not feasible. He's not that player. If he could do more, then I think he would. I think that we get too hung up on very 1 dimensional views on what a player in a certain position has to do. For me, its not about props doing x carries and making y tackles, its about getting the best out of your squad. Across the squad we have enough go forward, it may not be the most conventional go forward but the game is different to the one way play at amateur level, its different to the way the game was played even 10 years ago. Once people realise that they may be able to see what a player CAN do, rather than what they can't.

I could name several other players (of a higher level) that have deficiencies in their game which they should have for their position. Why does Kirke get so much stick for his, rather than Burrow's inability to pass to someone's hands?

Innacuraccies about Kirke.

1. He's cheap. He's been a member of the first 17 for 8 years. He's had interest from Wakefield and Bradford. He won't be the highest paid but I'll wager he was on more than many junior who could have replicated his role and more than Moore, Amor and lots more.

2. His coach doesn't want him to carry the ball forward. If so, we need a new coach.

3. He's a decent defender. See TVOCs post. He makes an average number of tackles at best. I refuse to accept that he might lean into someone else's tackles every now and again as a justification for his selection.

4. Successive coaches have picked him so they must know more than us. Maybe. Maybe not. Graham West drives a taxi now. What is Brian McLennan doing? Coaches make errors of Judgment. It's why they get sacked.

He's a lanky streak of lazy softcock who doesn't earn the blue and amber jersey he steals off someone else week in week out.

That, my dear boy, is a cracking shout.

I'd deduct any transfer fee from the wages of wheoever decided to let him leave and keep Griffin, Moore and the BFG instead, whether that be Hetherington and or McDermott.

I would have amor back,i was in the camp of keeping him in the first place.paul aiton would be another i would be taking a serious interest in,a proper hooker.

Eagle-Just for balance.
Burrows deficiencies at 9 have been covered on numerous occasions as have Jjb and Abletts brain farts to concede daft soft penalties ,Sinfield's poor defence out wide ,Mcguires form loss ,Baileys antics the Coaches selections/substitutions etc etc.
After EVERY game the positives and negatives of the team and individuals performances/form etc gets discussed and opinons exchanged mate you've been on here long enough and should know and see that.

Leeds let a player they had go to Wakey then a little over 12 months later pay a transfer fee to get him back.

Oh this board would have a field day.

Amor should never have been allowed to leave the club, but the scenario of GH paying money for something he could have had for free 12 months ago seems very far-fetched. It would also involve admitting a mistake.

But the Aiton rumour has been going round for a while even before Wakefield's publicised problems.

sal we will see not only what jjb's fitness levels are like on thursday but also what brett delaney's are like too
it will be interesting to see how they both perform against wigan and more importantly whether or not they can both attain the required levels of fitness come the gf semi finals should we reach them,as this is my cut off point

i questioned whether or not ryan bailey could attain the required fitness levels should he subsequently receive a ban for his actions against blanch

i would not hesitate in leaving any of mcguire, jjb, bailey or delaney out of the squad if they are not attain match fitness and be an asset to the side come play off time by semi final footy

what would you do if you were coach in this scenario sal?