Donald was a decidedly average player in your opinion. That is the whole basis of your gripe with his retention and the feeling it cost us Broughton. The reason I think your view is flawed is two fold. Donald was an excellent winger, one of the best in the league. Broughton has still to show anything remotely reaching the levels Donald did and probably won't get the chance because he wasn't prepared to wait for it, unlike his contemporaries now enjoying the limelight at Leeds rather than the low-lights at Salford.

So we both agree that Leeds were not ruthless in their treatment of Diskin after securing the signature of the world class Buderus.

I guess I must have been correct in disputing the comparison being drawn to Alex Ferguson, whoever he is. Thanks for your support on this occassion.

Thank goodness they weren't or I wonder if we'd have secured that record setting 3rd consecutive GF.

Something to do with football I think. I've no idea if the comparison is valid as I have no interest in the sport.

Not a sentiment I would imagine many of the players who have provided our club with it's most successful era ever could pass on to you.

Decidedly average antipodean I think I said (although I stopped short of calling him abysmal unlike one noted supporter) and therein lies an important distinction in an age of salary caps and supposed overseas trained quotas. It's not too nuianced an argument for you to appreciate I'm sure. Broughton had already shown and continues to do so that he would have been capable of replacing Donald (at a similar level - in my opinion of course) and continue the fine Academy legacy everyone is rightly so proud of at Headingley.

For reasons unknown (perhaps not even rugby ability related) he was not offered a contract (unless you can show otherwise - and you've never managed it so far) so I'm unsure where the patience he was supposed to show angle comes from.



Depends how you define 'support.'

I've never taken the sycophantic approach preferring to keep it real and speak as I find.

We all have our crosses to bear. You are probably Ian Kirke's not that I take issue with that.

I would have thought it was fairly clear that the club has shown enormous loyalty to the playing squad over the last few years, and had that returned in large part. It seems pretty 'ruthless' to me (for want of a better word) to start changing things significantly towards the end of the club's first trophyless season in 4 years. Whilst we were winning things turning over the squad in numbers would have been closer to insane than ruthless.

That's my impression of what happened last year, and Hetherington started to implement Plan B pretty much straight away after the CC final - he was clearly very very unhappy with how Leeds performed on the day.

So your issue is/was his place on the quota, rather than his ability?

We will have to respectfully disagree on the level Broughton has already attained.


I have no evidence to suggest he wasn't? Do you?

Me too. I doubt my expressed views on Kirke and the hero worship bestowed upon Buderus would hardly be described as sycophantic. Surely you're not resorting to saying I am sycophantic because my opinion differs to yours? Our debates may well be repetitive in nature but they have always been a step above that.

Should Kirke continue to display the kind of performance he did Friday night he shall have my wholehearted, sycophantic if you will, support. I like to think I am as objective as you, just perhaps from the opposite spectrum of optimism/cheerfulness.

No, my issue was with the contribution he was making on the field during 2009 (you described his performances over the first half of that season as abysmal), together with his commitment to the future and whether that could and should be replaced from within by one of the rising stars, while acknowledging in a salary cap and supposed quota restricted sport those factors would count against him also.



Kind of (in print from the YEP) but not as a directly attributable quote from either the player or the CEO. The point being I don't recall him turning down an offer to stay at Leeds (and I suspect neither do you) so the charge that he wasn't prepared to wait for an opportunity seems based on a unproven assumption. Without a contract offer being made for him to reject there's not a lot he could have done bar move on in that situation.

Perhaps his full-time studies in Doncaster were not compatable with his schedule at Headingley, it was stated when he went on loan to Hull that the move would allow him to do both. Who knows all the ins and outs and whether every decision is based on ability alone.




I know.

Perhaps I over reacted slightly, but I still want to know if he was being critical of Hetherington or McLennan. I think either would be harsh - Hetherington brought one of the best players of his generation to the club who might yet help us to more success, Bluey was then put in a difficult position where he had to try and keep both happy. It wasn't ideal and I never thought those 2 hookers would compliment each other, however I'm sure it was all done with the best intentions.




To be fair I think he played more and more as the year went on last year. In 2009 while showing glimpses of his talent he hardly set the world alight. This year he will hopefully come into his own. he will still need minutes of the field though. Hopefully McShane will show up a bit better and if not maybe when McGuire comes back Sinfield will play a bit at hooker.




I'm not sure Diskin's performances were ever as bad as is being mad out. I think he struggled at times behind a pack on the back foot. To say we would have lost either game is pure speculation. Incidentally Diskin was very good against Leeds in Cardiff playing a similar role to the one you say he might have struggled in.




Trust you to pull me up on a technicality.I knew there was one for sure and thought he'd played again? Did he not, or was it in another postion? I'm not sure there coaching staff would have been much worse than ours last year to be honest, especially looking at technical aspects of the game. The talent might have been there but they gave him a chance to play week in week out which was crucial to his development at that time.




And then come the time when Webb's contract is up we have a player who is settled on the wing with little or no experience of playing full back at the top level. We still wouldn't know how he'd fare in that position. I think now we know we have a player more than capable of makign that position his own.



I've said I hadn't seen enough of Broughton. I'm happy to accept the judgement of people who worked with him every day. How much was the signing on fee? Has that cost us a lot more than an improved contract for Broughton would have?

Goodness me no. We must disagree and publicly so until the other backs down. Things just wouldn't seem right otherwise.

Increased levels of wrestling probably did him no favours either. Providing referees do crack down on wrestling (and there was no sign of this happening at odsal yesterday) then we might yet see Diskin surprise some doubters.

WHAT!

Donald was an outstanding performer for Leeds over many seasons. He suffered only one dip in form (last season) but returned to form at the end.

He always gave his full effort and the try he scored in the GF, when he turned Wellens inside out, was of the very highest order. He possessed all the attributes that made him one of the very best wingers around - speed, swerve, good hands, good defence, good finisher and courage.

If he is average then who is outstanding?

It's the unquestioning faith of people that allows their minds to be easily manipulated by their " superiors " ! !

Surely the job of a head coach is to choose his team on merit and not a misguided sense of loyalty to any individual whatever his perceived status at the club ! Buderus or Diskin should have been given the full match for the greater good of the team. Does that answer your question ?

By the way Buderus and Diskin certainly did not complement each other.... But how do you know they did not compliment each other ?

Top 3 (in no order)

1) Buderus.

He is an 80 minute hooker. He can't "sparkle" for the whole 80 minutes and shouldn't be expected to do so.

People around me were complaining because he wasn't in at dummy half for every single play-the-ball with tosh like "See!! Burrow had to go in again, what's the point Buderus being on the pitch!" and equally ridiculously stupid comments. I bit my tongue. If there's a break on, what's the point in waiting for Buderus to get there!? Makes no sense. There was a game against Wigan (??? citation needed) in which JJB was named at hooker and over the match there was 7/8/9/10 different people in at dummy half and we played all the better for it. If Buderus needs a 10 minute spell without running to every tackle that's fine with me. At least he's on the pitch should a break happen or an opportunity arise. His defensive awareness and tackling ability is one of (if not the) most superior in our whole team.

2) Burrow.

Good to see him playing like that again. There was a period of the game in which Sinnie had a niggling injury and Burrow's general kicking game was outstanding. The first two matches of this season Robbie has looked how I was expecting him to look to the first few games of last season (with a full preseason etc). He looks sharp, a threat, and unpredictable, which is something he hasn't looked for 2 or 3 seasons.

3) Delaney

He said on his twitter he was enjoying playing in the pack. I hope that's genuinely the case because he has the potential to be one of the stand out second rowers in SL (injuries permitting) and he certainly has no chance of being a stand out centre.


Think that's my top three but it feels harsh because the whole 17 were outstanding. Under those circumstances, with those injuries I thought we couldn't have asked for more. (The two O'Meely tries we a bit soft but it was never going to be a 'perfect' performance so if that's what we needed to concede on then so be it).

Although I whole-heartedly agree with TVOC on the Broughton saga ... And I do believe Donald was only " going through the motions " in his last season, I do think he was much better than average for a good few years. Some of his tries scored were scintillating wingers' tries... . And who will ever forget Mcguire's try against Catalans in the GF match at Headingley which resulted from his imperious pin-point kick in field at full speed ? Majestic memories.

Absolutely ! On ALL counts. Well said that man.