Printer - I disagree about the lack of effort. Some of Hudds' tries, as with virtually every game this season, would and could have been stopped by better defence.

An example is the first Hudds try, which was scored because Leeds as a unit didn't move off their line. That wasn't due to fatigue or anything else so early in the game, they just didn't move. With the PTB 15 yards out Hudds pass along the line and force their way over because the whole right side defence is stood flat on the line. This was in the 5th minute, not the 75th.

The "we're putting in the effort" argument is rubbish for me. Either you make an effort as a unit or not at all. This year its generally not at all.

What games are you watching? It's blindingly obvious that the effort was there on Friday night. How much defending did we do in that first half especially! EVERY try can be stopped!! The fact that we couldn't complete our sets and kept dropping the ball in their half cost us the game. Look at the handling errors. Watkins had 4 in the first half alone!

I think there is a difference between effort and desire - effort is simply the day job which is what Leeds are doing - desire is a whole different ball game it is what has separated Leeds from the rest during the golden generation. Its what separtes the Sinfields, Peacocks, Cameron Smith's (the real one) from the rest.

It going that extra mile making that extra effort - anyone who thinks this current side is exhibiting real desire cannot see what is going on in front of their eyes.

Agree entirely with this. But also think there is a sense of realisation with some players, that they are just not as good as they thought they were whilst playing with better players.

Not saying the defence was great but it had plenty of effort.

They were plenty of poor effort games that featured Sinfield and Peacock.....50-0 Wigan, a few hammerings at Saints, Hudds with only 12 men for 70 mins put 48 past us.

There were but I don't ever recall Leeds being bottom of the SL during Sinfield/Peacock's time? When it really mattered and the game at Huddersfield really mattered those players went the extra mile - I didn't see that desire to avoid defeat in any Leeds player on Friday.

I can't only a handful of defeats in the last 10 years where desire was an issue - the semi against Huddersfield, the play off defeats to Warrington and Catalans and the first CC final against Warrington.

I have criticised Leeds and their desire at various times this year, but i don't personally think it was missing on Friday. Some of the last ditch defence was excellent and with the amount of ball and territory we gave up in our half its a wonder we didn't get beaten more handily. Our main problems for me is we don't look organised or to have an actual game plan, a lot of which stems from lack of on field leadership.Our ruck is STILL an absolute mess and teams roll us down the field with ease.To me, it really doesn't look like these issues are being addressed on the training field and that is the biggest worry.We are obviously struggling at the minute but its not for lack of desire imo, that has been there in the last three against Hull, Saints and Huddersfield.

I went to my first Leeds game in 1982 and I don't think they have ever been at the bottom of the league after 13 games in that time. Closest we got to relegation (being in the bottom 3) was I think '86? When we were 4th from bottom on points difference at the end of the season, but I don't think we dropped into the bottom 3 all year before that.

Disagree on that specific example. Not having a go at Lilley, but he jumped into a tackle he had no need to get involved in. That meant Watkins was late peeling off and by the time the ball was played he was just about back onside and turned towards the attack. He didn't have chance to get off the line before Ta'i was already on him.

That was a breakdown in communication and structure, not desire or effort.

No I don't recall it either. However I'm not saying the effort has been their all year or every game, it clearly hasn't and that's why we're bottom at the moment, that doesn't their wasn't effort on Friday which they clearly was.

Spot on and Wells covered that try quite well at HT.

Again not saying the defence was great, it had its flaws but imo they were more to do with decision making and execution rather than effort.

We've had some pretty poor effort in games this year and I myself said around Easter that the team doesn't look like it has the desire or fight in them to defend their titles. However they have shown a lot more in the last 3 games even if the haven't been able to turn two of those into victories.

I never said there wasn't effort - that is what I would expect, that is the day job. Defending is only part of the game, I didn't see any real desire not to lose no huge hits no huge Kylie types runs to gee the team up. Yes they tackled people over the line - every team in SL does that every week it nothing to write home about IMO.

Desire is "i am not going to drop that high ball" not I am going to repeatedly drop that high ball

So you are saying the player had no desire, and didn't give a tosh about dropping the high ball and it had nothing to do with the quality of kick and that he just wasn't able to? I could accept your view if you thought the player didn't have enough ability to take the kicks, but to think someone can just say 'i won't drop this kick' and he won't drop it, is ridiculous imo.

You are entitled to your opinion - what I am saying is the player had the ability to catch them but not the desire/need to do so.

Why do think he kept dropping the ball - its a mental thing - its what separates the good from the nearly good - they all have the ability why is that some prosper and some don't. Peacock wasn't the most gifted player but you would hard pressed to find a player with a desire to succeed, same goes for Sinfield.