I am aware of the Lance Todd win (when he played exceptionally but I'd still have given the award to Richard Swain that day), but I was ignoring it since I was talking about recreating Grand Final performances.

I echo those sentiments entirely though.

Indeed. Individual awards are always secondary in a team sport and are rarely won without the support of team-mates.

Burrow got a final opportunity at McGuire's expence in 2003 when directly replacing him on the bench from the successful semi-final line-up of two weeks previous where McGuire had helped to turn the tie on it's head. Unfortunately Burrow was knocked out cold within ten minutes as the plan to weave around and under the big Bradford pack backfired in spectacular fashion.

Fast forward to 2010 and it's McGuire again finishing a terrific run and offload by Peacock to take Leeds back to the final. I subscribe to the theory that the worst place to lose is in the semi-final and Leeds have been fortunate to have players such as a McGuire to come up with a big contribution at the crucial moments but always as part of a bigger team effort.

Burrow "earned" a final opportunity. There were games between the semi and final where McGuire didn't do enough to merit a place. In the semi he dived over from dummy half and exquisitely finished a Sinfield Furner piece but was far from a dominant player in that semi.

Just like Sinfield in 2000 though, he took it on the chin and made himself invaluable in the seasons to follow.

Care to elaborate who these 'games' were against ?

A 15-14 win at Castleford in which McGuire scored a try.

And, erm, that was it.....

Sorry to disapoint but im sure i recall Wire beating London in 2009, the week before we beat Hudds in the CC Final.....

Nope, we got beat 40-28 by Wakefield in a game that was far more in Wakefield's favour than the final score suggests. 2010 we beat the Broncos away, the week after the cup final to secure 3rd in the playoffs (a VERY dodogy try in the Saints game that weekend cost us second!)

Quite, so anyone claiming Burrow earned his place in the final over McGuire because of his form in the games inbetween the semi and final must have been chancing their arm.

Once upon a time the sequence of rounds of the Challenge Cup made some sense but that was lost when the final was shifted from it's traditional (late April to mid May) slot in the calendar.

Burrow played much better in that GAME and in the games leading up to the final. McGuire was still finding his feet a little (a bit behind Burrow into the 1st team). His 2 tries in the semi aside he was deemed not quite ready and that was probably right at the time.

Just as it was probably the right call at the time to omit Sinfield in 2000.

Different context to earlier when you saidbetween the semi and final where McGuire didn't do enough to merit a place. '"

Error free.

Who might they be?


Lucky for him it's been a while since an international was staged there then. My memories of Danny McGuire are indelibly etched by his performances in Christchurch, Wellington, Brisbane twice, Melbourne, Newcastle, Elland Road and the JJB.

I make no apologies for judging the true value of any player by his performances on the international stage against the best in the world.

Without wishing to be judged an acolyte (sounds biblical) you should be aware that revisionism would have McGuire winning the 2003 CC final for Leeds if selected. probably the 2004 Tri nations final for GB if started.

They can't be named for legal reasons. They can be identified by use of the phrase "flat track bully" and other (false) intimations that Danny McGuire only performs against weaker teams.

And you have no reason to apologise for the way you reach your judgements on a player. It is your right to do that however you please, and indeed your way is logically consistent.

My judgements of British players are generally based more on their domestic careers, possibly for the simple reason that I (being relatively young) can actually recall very few truly inspiring performances by British players on big international occasions, so they become a poor differentiator. I have also seen far more domestic RL than international RL (because there's more of it) so I afford it greater weight.

Therefore, I think it is also logically consistent that my memories of Danny McGuire will be indelibly etched by occasions like the 2003 CC semi final, the 2004 and 2008 Grand Finals and days like the 2004 home game v Bradford when he scored a very rapid hat trick (Bradford would prove to be our main title rivals that year... no flat tracks). It's not unreasonable that my memory of a player who has (so far) scored 199 times for the club I support will be of of a trademark sprint to the line to score.

Each to their own and all that.