Fair enough. I have no issues with his dynamism and I think 80 tackles over 2 games is fairly dynamic.

Good call re three-quarters. The lack of quality English backs is a real problem for SL clubs in general. Plenty of 2nd rowers though!

Personally I see Joel Tompkins going the other way, and being a Centre for England. Can't think of many better options

My sentiments exactly yet you're also defending JJB to the hilt in another breath!

Someone else doesnt need to do the same work because Ellis has already done more, so if they are hitting the same levels then on an aggregate you are ahead. And as I said, there are intrinsic benefits in making more yards on a single carry

I certainly think he went a little stale towards the end of his Leeds career.

because it can be a huge red herring.
If you are making more carries your can be doing poorer work but simply more of it. Plus if you are making lots of tackles but giving away penalties and missing more tackles then your arent really helping are you. You are simply trying hard.
and 10 more than Tomkins in 2005, you take your exciting attacking player. ill score of the ridiculous amount of penalties, errors and missed tackles he is making.

in Richies defence, JJB is more similar to Tomkins in style than Ellis.

Just without the speed or offload, or eye for a gap, or ability to pass whilst running. The lad can tackle though

I think thats inaccurate. He's probably our fastest forward, and faster than many of our backs.

In the loss at Hull KR, where Watkins scores from the chip over, and wins the footrace. Its JJB who keeps up with him all the way. Hardly a slouch, considering that was on 78 mins, and he'd probably got through a bucket load of work beforehand

I agree, he's also one of our best & fastest kick chasers.

What more work? It wasn't carries, tackles or marker tackles. What more work?
How did you get from "half a metre more average to per carry" (and put your hands out in front of your 50cm apart to remind yourself just how small 50 cm is) to "making more yards on a single carry"


Yep, came with faults and didn't correct them.


Why do you think that? If you're going to discount tries, assists, marker tackles, tackles and metres, and say making an extra 50 cm average carry is more important, it might be a good idea to have some reasoning.



What makes you think it's poorer work.
Of course Ellis will make less errors and give less penalties, he does less. Extrapalate that all the way - you and I haven't made a single error or given up a single penalty in SL in the last 10 years. Smokey and Richie, for England! Along with Ian Kirke!



Tomkins was 18 years old in 2005. Even so, in half the number of games he still grabbed the same number of tries as Ellis did in a full season at the height of his career. Made less errors and gave less penalties that year too.


You'll need to find some new ammo on this. Maybe there are some NRL stats that can demonstrate his work rate and attacking prowess? In repeatedly highlighting Ellis's lack of work rate and attacking ability compred to the younger generation, you're really putting him down.

I wouldn't call JJB slow and steady. He brings a fair amount of energy to the team, and has a greater work rate than Ellis had.

Disagree, Ellis any day.

Still, hope JJB makes me eat my words in a couple of hours

They dont need to make that extra half a metre. thats half a metre, every carry. Not in isolation, every single carry. Ellis has already done it. Ellis' work in that respect can counter somebody else, taking another tackle in making fewer metres. But thats generally not what happened. We had JJB making not dissimilar metres to Tomkins, and Ellis making more metres every single carry.

because it is much more dependant on the team than it is the individual. Ellis played, in his leeds career inside Chev Walker, Clinton Toopi and Carl Ablett. Leeds have for a long time focused on the opposite side of the field. We simply didnt have that much attacking work done down that side.

ok lets extrapolate, Tomkins gave away, in 2010, 28 more penalties than Ellis did in 2005. Only Le'strange in the entire league gave away 28 penalties in the entire season. Tomkins gave away almost 6 times the penalties Ellis did if we extrapolate then Tomkins would have needed to make about 3000 tackles in the season. He made 750. For 50% extra tackles you get 600% extra penalties.

The stats say otherwise. TBF though, Ellis was typically stuck in the right channel, whilst JJB has typically played with a bit more licence to roam.

Leaning on those extra 20 inches Ellis got on his average YPC is getting a bit silly now. Especially that you now seem to think that translates to Ellis making those extra 50 cm on every carry. Have a think about how average work