Great post

I am getting tired of repeating that both Bailey and Kirke have been valuable members of the squad and I have agreed with both having their contracts extended because of the absence of better players being available with the important match winning experience and mental toughness. But I view them as inexpensive (probably), squad players that just make the 19 rather than starters when all are fit.



In my view all players need to go forward as it is a key object of the game. Therefore in the Catalan game it is perfectly reasonable to point out that Kirke (who was being criticised for go forward and 2 missed tackles) made more metres than Bailey, Clarkson, McGuire, Sutcliffe and Foster and at a better metre per carry too and his m/c was equal to Singleton who made 19 more metres but fewer tackles and more missed tackles. So why do you object to my presenting these facts and why have you not been equally critical of the others before I mentioned these facts?



I would agree that this is highly possible.



Kylie in his cameo minutes still makes more impact than Bailey and I will not be suprised to see him do the business in the games to come.


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JC- Kirke is a big unit and plays FR or some times BR Mcguire ,Sutcliffe do not Foster is half his size very raw and finding his way in the sport the go forward comparison is wrong because they have different positions within the team and 1 is still a kid.
Onto Singleton he's shown more impact and imo work-rate and potential this few months than Kirke has in the last 18!
Again with RB its been pointed out about his lack of fitness and being unable to train but i do agree he was poor in that particular match.
As for Achurch good on him its all positive i'm chuffed he's come back and made an impact after so long out RB take note.

Don't presume Kylie was a cameo just because he was on bench, had 2 big stints and played very very well.

Playing Devil's advocate....
10 errors and 6 penalties in 25 games and he averages over 20 tackles in a game - there are not many that are that neat and tidy. He doesn't carry the ball often - but how do we know that the coach doesn't want him to?
Chris Clarkson has played 3 less games but racked up roughly twice as many errors and penalties, about the same number of tackles per game. However, he carries more often and makes more breaks - he's a straight running back rower. It's a balance.
I can see why, with the current way the cap is set up and the way teams have to assemble squads, that you would keep a player like Kirke. He doesn't f*** up very often and he is usually fit and healthy. I would also say that in the GF's that he's played in his contribution has been solid, dependable and well worth his bench spot. I can also see why other players have come and gone while he remains.

Do I think we could do better - absolutely - but the way the cap is set up the sensible, safe approach would seem to be to keep a Kirke in every squad.

DHM-Does that now extend to another 2 yrs and is "Dependable" and "Solid" good enough from a 32yr old FR with all his experience??
For me absolutely not especially when we've moved on younger and better players like Amor and not given lads like D. Smith ,Baldwinson and Tonks chances to earn a regular place.
Even taking into account those departures with a fully fit squad is he worth a new deal?
Again for me its a firm no and it was highlighted even further when the injuries hit he should be stepping up but he didn't.
Hopefully Yates can prove to be a success and we get another FR in because with another 2 yrs of Kirke as a regular in the 17 we are going backwards rapidly imo.

Not all players at Leeds end up finishing their contracts, they might as well read "another 2 years unless we decide otherwise at some point".

So as you've played the game, I'm sure you are aware how key it is to any game to slow the play the ball down, by getting men in the tackle, getting a man on his back and allowing the defence to get organised.

Do you watch him closely? If you are suggesting he is a passenger I would suggest you watch again. When he is on the pitch he is involved in pretty much every tackle in the middle section of the pitch when we defend.

when he's on, I think he has pretty much the highest defensive work rate. Maybe that makes him popular with the players. Do you think he would be popular with the players if he was actually work shy and coasted on the others efforts? Do you think that in the tight-nit squad we have there would be room for a player no-one respected?

He doesn't carry the ball very often. True. But he doesn't need to. We have JP, We have Delaney, we have Kylie, we have JJB. What we need is someone to come on when people start to tire who makes it as hard as possible for the opposition to get on top and get a roll on. That is the quality I think he provides, and that's why I think he's in the side.

For the last few weeks we have conceeded tries that have been as a direct result of his poor defending.

Now I accept that has not been the case previously, but it is happening more and more lately. Are you not watching closely enough? or have you not seen the games? I his previously his defence was a plus point, but definately not the last few months.

Kirke has been a scapegoat for quite a few seasons now, unjustified a lot of occassions, and at times very justified. But this season his by far and away his worst in a Leeds shirt. I don't care what he has done previously, which coach has picked him, how many rings he has, what I care about is the here and now. This year to say Kirke has been pathetic is being too generous. He should not be playing super league on this seasons performances, let alone playing for the current champions.

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So when Delaney ,Jjb and Kylie have been absent its just down to JP is it??
A team full of youngsters when the chips were down where was "everyones mate" then?
Also i disagree again he hasn't provided the role you specified this season either out of his minutes 2 of his carris have been decent and a few tackles 3rd man in etc have been effective i have watched him and imo he isn't good enough.

According to Opta Kirke is the least effective defender among Leeds' prop options this season missing 7% of those tackles he's involved in.

Along with Moore he averages the fewest carries per game and they also make the least number of busts which is something of a concern when looking for some impact off the bench.

That said Opta this week couldn't count to four when totting up the penalties Leeds conceded and once credited Ian Kirke with kicking a 40-20 so placing too much reliance on their output isn't advisable, IMO.

Another thread that's drifted onto the subject of Kirke.....that's a shocker.

He must wish Vickery was back as he took his place for the first half of 2013 on here.

We need Mathers to return, only he has the stature to resuce Kirke.

I can accept that he has missed tackles, and that they have ended up in tries. I have never said that he should be our top 17 prop. I just point out some of the things he does which means he has a place in the squad.

For me its not about the rings he has, its about the coaches and CEOs who have continued to use him in the biggest games.

Its fairly well documented that I don't get to many games, so I don't get to see everything, but I do watch most games on sky which affords me the chance to see more detail than you do at the ground.

FWIW I am not a lover of the guy, I do think he could do more, I'm just trying to provide some balance on a topic of frequent conversation