I think you have to write that match off as the whole team not putting in. Which given that our season was effectively on the line suggests - yet again - that we are desperately lacking leadership on the field. We still have too many players looking to others to take the lead and who follow whatever the vibe of the team is on the day.

I will though comment on a couple of players (aside from the generally useless like Sangare and Lisone). I sincerely hope Newman is carrying an injury, because he was woefully exposed for speed by Lee Kershaw (!) for one of the tries. Looked like he was running in treacle. And gawd help us if the plan is to use Cam Smith as a prop. He looks and runs like a second division prop from the mid 80s.

‘Knee jerkers’ after 9 shocking seasons…..lol…..

We have so many overseas players because our youth development is so poor - my core point is the quality of SL is a directly influenced by the lack of quality of the home grown talent we produce. When did Leeds last produce a half back of quality or a hooker of real quality. These are key positions in RL that you would think would be a focus for an elite professional club.

The half back issue has been a longstanding problem - going back decades. I'd say O'Connor and Johnson are pretty good hookers, particularly O'Connor. And before you say he didn't start that way, neither did a few others before him like James Lowes.

In terms of halfbacks we had McGuire, Burrow and Sinfield and then Luke Gale, who in any other era would have been a mainstay of the side but left because there was no space for him at Leeds. Agree entirely that we haven't produced anyone of note since him. To be slightly fair, I suspect there would have been little interest in looking at junior halfbacks seriously while the others were still running round as anyone we developed would have left, like Gale. We definitely dropped the ball in having nobody come through to replace them though, although there was hope that Sutcliffe would be our long term stand off.

I don't know what any of that or lack of British players generally has to do with 5 "NRL" backs looking like a pub team though. If anything they should be tearing other sides apart every week.

Carrying on with a degree of success our status of a mid table side with delusions of grandeur.

If we were producing players of the correct quality we wouldn't be needing to engage all these poor Aussie players. Sinfield made his debut in 1996, Burrow and McGuire in 2001. Luke Gale made his SL debut in 2009 - we are now in 2024 so we haven't been able to produce a half back of SL quality in 15 years? Liam Sutcliffe in 2012 so be generous to the club 12 years!!

This is not just Leeds alone - this is SL in general - quality of British players coming through the system is at an all time low during the SL era - a major contributory factor in the reducing standard of the competition.

Let's take the points one at a time. Gannon, he's clearly a talented young player, but can't seem to get on the field. If he continues in this vein for another year especially if it's concussions, I'm saying we cannot rely on him to change that run and therefore we need to look elsewhere. He may go on to have a great year next year and become a first choice back rower. Who knows? All I know is that unless we are ruthless we will not transform the squad and playing ambitions.

Bentley is the one player in a smaller pack that can have impact. He's been much better under BA than before, like he now knows his role and is capable of it. We couldn't have a small pack, but Bentley plays above his weight and if he can continue to control his aggression and attitude he can be an asset.

Regarding McDonnell, I'm not sure I see an England regular there, but you're right he should be in consideration I simply missed him.

Frawley has improved, it would have been hard for him to get worse wouldn't it. He's not at the level we should be seeing from an import, if he can't pick up then he should be replaced by someone better. Back to being ruthless again.

Ackers, like every hooker will have trouble if his front row doesn't hit the line hard and generate quick ptb. We don't do this, practically ever, so Ackers doesn't shine. He's definitely a better player than he is showing and I think if we get the props right we will see a better player in him.

We agree that Sunday was a shocker, the biggest problem was attitude, which BA described as smelly in his immediate post match I/V. I feel certain that this is at least in part down to the mental capability of many of the players, their just not ruthless (there's that word again) enough to be winners. The lack of leadership also needs addressing, we don't look to have a competent captain among the current group, and the collective playing leadership is also sadly missing. These are also reasons why I would be looking to make so many changes.

Perhaps we have different opinions of the way forwards, perhaps we have different views on what success is? I would be willing to be ruthless to create a winning culture that permeates every part of the club. This is primarily sport, and secondly business, so what you might see as Knee Jerkery I see as cutting out the weakness and building strength. Alternatively maybe it's because I've finally started to watch Game of Thrones...

Agree with most of that, apart from Gannon - just no need to bring him into this thread. Maybe as you say if he misses all next season for concussion, but are there any suggestions he will? That's surely one for another day.

Also agree that the forward pack needs the most surgery.

My point is that in a stinker of a team performance like that, there's no point highlighting the need to get rid of individuals because barring about three players all would be sacked on that performance. Yet we know most of them can play consistently better, as recent games against Wigan (etc) demonstrate. Surely the coach has some responsibility to affect the collective mentality too? He seems to have done so in the games before this one.

By the way, on a positive note, I thought Miller was actually one of the few who was consistently making good effort and executing well.

I think as Leeds fans we have become conditioned to accepting mediocrity as a step in the right direction. If you analyse the performances under Arthur we are far from a massively improved team. Beating a Wigan team that had played 3 games in a week was a standout, we’ve had a decent half here and there and people are knee jerking over the possibilities. The reality is people seem to quickly forget the poor games and halves under Arthur and even seek to promote an 18 point defeat to Warrington as an improvement even though we never looked like scoring until a second rower who is leaving put in our only decent kick of the game for a try. This team set the bar so low people have become blinded to how inept we still are and will be in the near future with this group of players.

Excellent posting, BA has been a welcome signing, improved our defensive pattern tenfold, unfortunately there is a limit to what a coach can achieve with a substandard squad.

No-one wants to accept mediocrity. We do, however, have to accept reality, something a lot of Leeds fans are struggling with. Even if it were possible to sack everyone deemed unworthy of the current HKR and Wigan teams, we would be unlikely to replace them all with exactly the right players needed in one season. And like it or not, the chances are that they would need time to gel. There is no pathway to instant success - just look how HKR have built up gradually over the seasons.

What I want to see is sustained improvement, and that hasn't happened, which is a big disappointment for a club like Leeds. The only realistic way forward is a combination of a) investment in the best junior talent coming through, b) replacing players coming off contract with better players from outside or within, c) improving the way the current squad is coached and trained, and d) finding ways to move on contracted players not performing to standard, without damaging the club's reputation as a destination for top players.

It's maybe too early to pick the bones of this season. Looking back, the sweeping changes to the spine and the messaging coming from the club raised the expectations of fans and media to unrealistic levels. We knew that the forwards needed strengthening but I for one was hoping for the likes of Gannon and Holroyd to really come to the fore and establish themselves as real 'bolters', not to mention the likes of Hudson. Whatever team we have next year, I think setting more modest and realistic goals would be sensible, while improving as much as possible.

Excellent post.

c) is the quickest to achieve, b) can be achieved over the next couple of years, quicker [iif[/i d) can be achieved. Unfortunately a) will take much longer to filter through to the first team and will not benefit from BA's influence and is dependent on Blease ensuring that the club as a whole ensures continued investment and development of young players.