Too many games and a structure that really only offers a poor illusion of importance.

Regarding the points above, obviously we have more games now but it's not just since the super 8's format was introduced. It's been a gradual malaise set in over years.

You mention illusion of importance, but again that doesn't stack up. We had intensity from the fans when we had the old playoff format's which had arguably less resting on the games week by week because you really need to be in the top 4 or damn close to it to have a chance of playing to get to the GF. Before you could finish lower down and still have a good chance.

So although I don't think the current situation can be blamed on the current format, it seems to date back to circa 2008 when licensing and then the top 8 was subsequently introduced. Because those 2 things did really sterilize the competition, due to the points you mentioned. We don't so much specifically have those problems with the format any longer any longer, but things aren't improving.

Reading the Wigan board they're fed up of the style of play. Probably goes for most teams as they aren't attractive to watch.

You all need to start playing like the Leythers

The issue JJB brings up has a few starting points.

Firstly, we have a new generation of refs coming through and they seem to be under instruction to just make a best guess and so its almost in both attack and defence to have a messy ruck because you are going to win/lose penalties and knock ons regardless

Secondly, its a quality issue, however slow the ruck is, if you can't score more than 6 points on the back of 20 penalties and against 11 men at times, that's a lack of quality in attack.

Thirdly, there is a good chance that we are reaping the legacy of the decision not to go to two refs.

Attendances were growing up to 2012, so I disagree that this is the endpoint of an 8 year malaise as you put it.

By illusion of importance I mean something I mentioned as a negative of this system before it started. Importance is a zero sum game. This system hasn't created importance, just shared what there was differently . Previously we had one aim. To win the GF everything was geared towards 1 aim and everyones achievement was decided at the same time. Now clubs like Widnes and Wakefield etc etc had achieved their Aim with nearly 3 months of the season to go, Les Catalans nd Cas failed in theirs (realistically) with 6 weeks or so to go, Leeds have been going through the motions for months

And the fact we play so many games means that each one is of less importance. Even take the Qualifiers, leigh have secured promotion and still need to play 2 games, Salford haven't bothered playing for a month and aren't relegated.

The easiest and best way to deal with the play the ball is to firstly, make the players stand on both feet and play the ball with the foot (or at least attempt to) secondly if the attackers are moving forward on the knees or move sideways of the mark make them move back to the mark, if they are persistently doing it and trying to milk penalties, penalise them. It won't be long before teams get the message, we then have a slightly slower but cleaner play the ball, there will then be no or less reason to niggle wrestle or hands in. We then just get a good defensive line and teams having to play some good old fashion football to break defence down. If that means bringing in a second ref like NRL then so be it, but the game will be miles better and fairer to watch. To me it's that simple.

How about we don't allow players to change their grip on an attacker once the player is grounded or held is called , if anybody then touches them afterwards ( you know like Danny Buderus did every tackle he was ever involved in ) a penalty is given , and while we're at it , make forward passes illegal , that'd help don't you think ?

Ha your so clever with your sarcasm aren't you, this is the problem with social media and forums like this, you suggest something for open fair discussion and someone trolls it, why not reply with a sensible comment or input.

An entirely sensible input , just that you don't like it

Perhaps the ball needs to be passed backwards - that might help cut out the marginal forward pass

Until we start to produced really skilled players in key attacking positions then this turgid style will continue - it doesn't matter how fast/slow the ruck if you haven't got the skills to create and capitalise attacking opportunities then you will continue to bore everyone to death

I suggest if anyone has time watch the Penrith game from today - in that you see a team that plays what is in front of them and has the skill set to deliver when the opportunity arrives. Some truly superb attacking moves which displays great skill, great execution and great athletic ability. Hardaker is in for nasty shock when he gets to Humberside.

While I agree with the general sentiment, the lack of creativity is something the Aussies also seem to be struggling with because as good as Penrith lead by Moylan and the excellent Cleary where, the doggies were turgid and have been for the last month. Forwards making metres all day (Klemmer had over 200 I think) but little strike and end product produced by their pivots, granted Morris was on one leg for most of it.

I think as a game we are seeing less skill or flamboyance or whatever you want to call it, and it's not all due to better defences.

The Doggies are stuck in a time warp - they haven't changed the style of play in years - huge over-reliance on the 'mean machine' and they have a pair of halves that are simply not fit for purpose - put Thurston or Milford on the end of that forward pack and you would see a huge difference. Hassler like McDermott has reached the end of the line - he is a dinosaur and his teams play like they are stuck in the stone age.

The game in Australia is in transition - some of the attacking play this year has been extraordinary. The emergence of teams like the Raiders, Sharks Broncos and Panthers who play a more expansive style is the future and it no surprise the likes of South Sydney are nowhere to be seen. The lead boots they wear to help the wrestle only stops them falling over when they are grasping thin air when the more agile sides just run past them.

Melbourne are the only rigid format team still left in the comp. they have the best coach and the best technical players who play to a system that accommodates everybody - they

On the Panthers they played without half backs today - one pass apart Cleary did nothing in open play and Cartwright plays as a back row forward. Moylem and Mansour ran the show both were superb

I would agree there has been a real split, that is as much down to coaching as it is personnel. Canberra have been my favourite team to watch this year, that edge with Whitehead, Leilua and Rona, as well as Austin reminds me of Mags, Ali, Senior, Bar back in the day. I also think teams on the upswing have halves that create rather than stick to structure. The young guns at Wests and even the Titans. Even the Storm who like you say are still highly structured have one or two mad flair players in Munster and Vunivalu.

Hopefully like you say we are seeing a bit of a change and is our way SL will follow sometime soon and leave this horrible wrestling style long behind.

I honestly think that is part of it. We generally seem to be about 4 or 5 years behind the NRL in SL and if you think back to the teams that came over for the WCC 5 or 6 years ago there wasn't much free flowing rugby from them, it was very much wrestle/controlling the play the ball oriented.

So whilst there are other issues in SL I think we'll see a reaction and a change in style. I'd hoped that may have started last season with the way Leeds played the game but unfortunately not.