What have St Helens won since 2007?

The lack of pace is more to do with the attack - we used to be able to go round sides now we can't.

Watkins is a huge gamble he may not be the player he was following his surgery the same goes for Peacock

I assume you are being obtuse. Surely you've read some of the posts from the Stains fans on here?

2008 CC Final perhaps? 2008 Hub Cap? 2008 Grand Finalists? 2009 Grad Finalists? Not exactly singing out "decline and failure", is it?

We either lack pace or we don't. Very few sides have scored long range tries against us this season; however, I will grant you that we have not scored as many long range tries this season. I would put the latter down to the fact that we've probably made far less clean breaks but, I'll leave the Excel warriors to settle that one.

Watkins looks a far better prospect to me than Atkins did at his age. Admittedly, the injury is an issue but, the noone can predict how that may turn out. Are you suggesting the club should pack him off to Salford now?

I share some of your concerns but, you're knee jerking.

Maybe it was offside, but watch it carefully, 3 Leeds players ran up in a line, 1 challenged for the ball and the other two just ran past where Mathers (I think) jumped, not even looking at the ball and not interested in how the play developed. They should have been in a position to stop Riley before he'd gone two yards. We were always in trouble once he'd gone 20 yards as our defensive line was shot.

Biggest disappointment for me was the lack of pressure we put on Warrington.

This happened from both our lack of respect of possession which meant Warrington started their sets much further up the field than Leeds did and the poor kicking game which made it easier for Warrington.

On Saturday morning I lambasted the U13 football team that i manage for their lack of effort ant told them to watch this game to see two fully committed teams playing a tough game and getting on with it. Whilst two teams tried only one team succeeded in playing the game the right way.

David,

I agree entirely but, like Andy, think your last sentence is an over reaction to the defeat.

I'd like to see a decent, hard working, prop signed up for next year but would see what we've got in Watkins before I rush out for a centre. besides, who are you going to get? We got Delaney and, being brutally honest, whilst the kid is solid enough, is he really a major upgrade over Ashley Gibson or even Lee Smith in the right centre?

Nothing went right on the day .... starting with the Brother in Law sleeping in and delaying our departure.

Warrington played very well, contained us in the middle and made their own luck. As poor as we played from the 10th to 40th minutes I would have been delighted with 0-8 at Half Time. Tries on back to back sets, almost against the run of play were a valid reward for Briers 40:20. I couldn't see the Leeds kicking game producing anything similar if they were still playing now. The third Wire try was a bit of a killer given the nature of the offside/accidental offside call that wasn't given.

Second half we had a go, but the atmosphere in the Leeds end told you everything, it was flat as the majority just couldn't see a way back into the game. By contrast, another Wire player in Hicks produced a miracle take from a bomb for a great try. Those kind of plays deserve to win finals, Warrington produced a few and we didn't. Still, on another day, having got over the line 4 times and converted a couple, the games momentum could have been ours and we could all have seen the final we were hoping for.

As the dust settles I have no reason to rant at individual players, it was a collective failure. I assume we had a game plan based on moving the ball at every opportunity, offloading at will and keeping the game away from a bigger Wire pack, and that we just didn't produce it. If that's the case I'm really confused why Ali wasn't picked given his amazing ability to keep the ball alive.

Nevertheless the longer McClennan stays in charge the more I see this team treading water. Saturday was in no way the worst Leeds performance of the season, which is saying something because there have been some shockers this year, but I have been consistent for 2 years calling for someone to work on the technical skills of individual players.

It occured to me on Saturday that there is a defensive skill involved in stopping grounding of the ball over the line. Warrington excelled at this and I would suspect that reflects training ground work by Smith with his players. I'm not convinced that Leeds currently practice and drill such skills like they did under Smith and that is where we can improve.

Anyway, roll on Saturday, see you at Hull.

Got to agree with you fully. I have had doubts about Bluey for some time. His success record with Leeds is good but he inherited a settled championship winning side which would have continued to win the big games IMO due to the individual player skills rather than the coaches imput. Under Bluey the quality of our rugby has steadily deteriorated and our sole predicable game plan is one up rugby bashing up the middle or boringly turning back into the ruck. There is no plan B, no slick planned moves, poor technique in the tackle, poorer handling, poorer discipline with no attempt to rectify. We have started the last two seasons undercooked and ill prepared. We play with a very flat attack with little momentum whereas the top 3 sides play expansive rugby with a deeper line of attack. Few players have enhanced their skills under his tenure. This change in style has lost us friends and status amongst the neutrals in the game.

In the cup final Tony Smith totally out thought Bluey in all aspects of the game. We had the chance at half time to regroup with a change of plan but still came out to repeat the failure of the first half. With 15 minutes to go we were still playing one up stuff with no idea of an alternative.

It is tempting to over react to such a woeful display and blame should be evenly spread as few of the players can escape criticism either. However the signs have been there for all to see for quite some time.

The loss of JP to the side is huge and with Biffa also out we lack the go forward needed for the backs to perform. Kylie is the only prop left who charges in and he has been less effective this season so we have a real problem at prop. Tall men at prop need space to get into their stride which is why the likes of Bailey and Kirke don't make the yards needed as they seem to take the ball from a standing start. JP is an exception with his determination and strength.

I've not come on here to gloat or anything but just to thank the groupe of ladies that were sat in front of us at the game (block 527 row 31 seats mid 20's)
i would like to thank them for a great afternoon of fun laughter and banter
and also to 2 from hull
you all made the day that little more special
many thanks once again

Being a Wire fan I was obviously over the moon, and I have to credit your fans for their general assesments of the game. I happened to travel to Old Trafford when Leeds completely dominated what was a very favourable St Helens side in 2007 final and on Saturday there were many similarities. It just goes to show how important defence is in a game. If Bailey scores, the ascendancy is 100% with Leeds. Defence won it for us.

I do fear for your next opponents because despite not getting the result on Saturday, I would keep faith in your side. They didn't play overly bad, just we had that bit more.

Wouldn't be suprised whatsoever to see Leeds go to Ol Trafford and retain a fourth successive SL trophy. Such is Super League now!

All the best.

I was surprised to see JJB take the ball in 3 times in the first set after Atkins had been bundled into touch. IfI was playing prop in a Cup Final I would want to take that first hit-up to put a marker down, ours didn't seem to want to.

IMO the second rowers were running too near the ruck and the props weren't doing nearly enough work in their short stretches.

For me the best team undoubtedly won on the day, Warrington were too strong in the forwards and their kicking game was far superior to ours plus their defense was awesome especially Mathers (I can't really understand why they are binning him off in preference to Hodgson). Three poor decisions really detemined the outcome which were:
1. Bailey should have stepped Mathers in the first 10 minutes instead of tgrying to go through him it definately cost us a good 6 point start
2. The forward pass to Hall at 8-0 down was iffy to say the least and was no worse than another dozen or so which Silverwood let go. The linesman didn't call it as he was running down the line keeping up with play and Silverwood couldn't possibly have been in a position to see it properly as he was beyond the play
3. Atkins second try, Riley was clearly in an offside position as the ball came off Mathers backside when he was competing for the ball which for me was the worst decision of the game. Going in at 8-0 down is a lot easier than three scores down as borne out in our semi final with Saints.

All that said Warrington deserved their win and were competitive across the park, you couldn't really single out any Warrington players who didn't perform on the day whereas there were many within the Leeds ranks

See what I said earlier on this page about Leeds lack of composure/thinking on that play

2008 - Challenge Cup winners
2008 - Hubcap

We've won 5 games out of 9 against the top 3 sides this year. We haven't struggled to compete. We've been inconsistent but we have had more injuries than most and this has made the season very disjointed.

The fact we could have left out Donald, Ali plus Kirke and Burgess had everyone been fit suggests we are very strong still. We may be an aging side but to have a squad where 4 Grand Final winners could be in the stands is still a pretty strong one IMO.

I'm not saying I don't have concerns, but to say this current squad won't be able to compete is a massive over reaction.

I havent read the other posts, but here is my View, we were battered all over the park saturday and out muscled in every single position on the field, there are no excuses no bringing up our back to back to back superleague titles, This was a shambles and so the players should be embarrased,

Well done wire you deserve it!!