can't see how selling Sinfield and signing some aussies would stop the sky money being shared between the same select list of "Super League Clubs"

No single player is bigger than the team = Agreed, however, the "Team" (as opposed to the "Club"icon_wink.gif is very much built with him in mind. he is surrounded by friends, and has alluded himself to the spirit within the "Team"

which brings me to my second point..

there should be no room for sentiment+ I disagree. The "Team" plays together, works together, trains together. The "Team" back each other in adversity, they applaud each other in times of success. I'd suggest that a "Team", is by it's very existence, proof of the need for sentiment. You can have a group of players who take the field and call them a team, but they may not be a "Team", names like Schoey, Tait, Mathiou etc never played for each other as a "Team".

GH's master stratagem in my opinion, has been to buy players who fit the "Team" personality wise, not just because they are good players. Which suggests to me he recognises as a one time Leeds player, that the "Club" needs a good "Team" to succeed.

Completely agree about the 'team' ethos. But this doesnt mean that individuals wont and cant leave or be replaced. Nick Scruton and Richie Mathers were every bit a part of that 'team' culture at Leeds, both moved on and were replaced.

Of course we should show loyalty to the players - but this cant go on forever, thats where it becomes sentiment, when the loyalty shown goes too far and is to the detriment of the team. (Not that I am saying this is the case with Sinfield).

Some people make out like Sinfield is irreplaceable and that we would be doomed without him - if this is the case, what will happen when he retires? We have seen his best days, and effectively we have built a team around him over the past 10 years. All I am suggesting is that maybe it is time for a change in direction - He is not going to be around forever, and at the moment the 'team' look far from a fluent bunch of mates who are playing for each other (and lets not even talk about our current lack of creativity)

As for Heighington, yes he has played the majority of his earlier career in the second row, but nowadays, he plays his best rugby on the fringes of the ruck, hitting the guts behind the markers. For me, he would not be as effective out wide as he is up the middle, hence the last couple of years he has played in the middle of the park.

Can you remember when Iestyn was injured. The team stopped being a "Team" and went back to being a bunch of players. Yes Ryan Sheridan did his best but it was a distant second. Once Iestyn came back, Andy Hay was running angles and jogging in under the posts, so the question would be, if Iestyn was not 100% and the remaining players would have to make up his shortfall in defence, etc. Would you say playing him was sentimental, knowing that dropping him would cause pandemonium in the ranks?

My point with Sinfield is that IF he gives the other players extra impetus by his presence, then having him in the side, personally underperforming or not, still makes sense if the alternative is a side devoid of ideas and cohesion.

Is keeping him past his best for this purpose alone viewed as sentimental.

My point would be that a class 7 could carry out that organising role, whilst bringing a better passing and kicking game. We would certainly miss his attitude to defence - But, having said that, if we signed a heighington type replacement, that would more than make up for this also. Obviously we would lost some of his 'aura', but I think the improvements elsewhere would outweigh this.

In Sinfield as the example. He is the best player we have so importance to the team is because of that. If he was no longer the best player we have (or in terms of looking at sentimality, not good enough any more), then he wouldn't have that importance to the team.

This was the same as the other example you showed with Harris. Harris was also the best player we had at the time, and therefore him missing of course would show up an alarming hole.

Sentimality comes into question, when the player is not good enough, past his best and therefore not consistently performing, and has lost his hunger, but still gets picked and given a contract. A typical example of this was Senior and Ali getting awarded contracts for this season, this could be even worse if repeated for next.

Not disagreeing with you in any way, but what happens when one of these players retires, or it becomes counter productive to keep them in the team (Again, I wish to re-iterate, this is not the case with Sinfield - although I do think a change could potentially be good for both Leeds and Sinfield)? You cant keep players forever on the basis that they are good for team spirit. Teams eventually have to move on and create new bonds/friendships, it's just evolving the existing team spirit.

With some of the hospital balls Sinfield has thrown over the past 12 months, you could argue he is having a negative effect on team spirit (that last bit was said firmly tongue in cheek)

Timing the departure and replacement of players is indeed crucial. IMO they got it wrong with Senior but it was understandable with Watkins development being hindered by injury. IMO they have probably got it right with Webb. IMO they got it wrong with the Buderus signing (there wasn't a need there and it only brought problems).

IMO, it's not even at the back of the mind with Sinfield. We might want to think about McGuire's value given his lack of availability to injury but I don't think we're there yet.

It's not easy to do. You have to ensure there's a viable and better replacement and that you're not replacing for the sake of it. You also have to make sure the incoming player will fit in the dressing room.

Same thing with the coaches (another area I think they have gotten wrong).

I think Sinfield dis there on merit and should remain so. However, if he's kept on for reason's of sentiment that sits fine with me. I'm a sentimental old fool at times and as our most successful captain ever, soon to be our highest scorer ever and arguably one of our greatest ever players I think there's plenty of room for sentiment.

John Holmes earned a double testimonial at Leeds. How many 1st team games do you think he played in those last three or four years? Should Leeds have got shut of Holmes several years earlier to "cash in"?

you are so transparent

Of course not, however, the big difference is that we are now in a salary cap era, meaning every penny counts.

Sinfield will no doubt be one of our top earners (and rightly so), however, as I've said all along, if we were looking to improve our creativity from a playing roster perspective (obviously the coaching appointment also needs to be right), losing Sinfield and bringing in a meter eater of a loose, and an organising 7 could improve the team.

I completely agree, if we were looking to replace players, it should be with those of a better standard. My point would be that from a playing perspective, replacing Sinfields current ball playing skills wouldnt be overly difficult. His organisation of the team is possibly more difficult, but with a class 7 alongside Buderus/Mcshane at 9, this could be done.

I do feel we are in need of a big shake up. The team at the moment look flat, and I know there are a number of reasons for this. But, if we are looking to rebuild, and create a new culture, this is one viable option in my eyes - providing the right players are available of course.

You can have the best team spirit in the world but if you haven't got the quality it is wasted - you need high quality players to create a top team. You don't need a team full of them but you need your fair share.

The team were carrying Diskin - who was a pale shadow of the player he was in 2004 - maybe they realised a change was required? The best thing would have been for Diskin to go as soon as Buderus arrived - both playing 50% of each game was far more disruptive than the effect on the team dynamic. Diskin didn't hang around long after he pocketed his testimonial brass!!

First 10 years (1968/69 to 1977/7icon_cool.gif - 347
Second 10 years (1978/79 to 1987/8icon_cool.gif - 277
Final 2 years (1988/89 to 1989/90) - 1




Sounds dangerously like a potential argument for extending the contract of the current Leeds number 17? Rewarding loyalty and all that.

Thought I would raise the whole team spirit discussion again in light of the past few weeks performances.

People spoke on this thread about not breaking the spirit - to be honest the spirit that was within this 'unit' between 2003-2009 seems long gone. We are a team of petulant, spoilt brattish individuals! I seriously think it's time for fundemental change.

I spoke before about using Sinfield as a make weight for a top class half, and last nights performance backed up my thoughts on his skill levels. Watch the game and look at the quality of his basic pass selection and execution. The majority of his passes nowadays are slightly behind the man, or too high, too low, a hospital pass, or an interception. Get an organiser in at half, a meter eater at loose and let's have a proper shake up. I'm sick of seeing them sulk for giving away another needless penalty. And that is where Sinfield really winds me up... If he is the inspirational leader (as he has been in the past), he should be leading by examplw, not being one of the worst culprits!