Roby's a winger now - get with the program.

Did Smith officiate at both games?

smith has always been a poor ref. thats why he was demoted and only came back when they needed another full time ref.

Stop using facts to derail a perfectly good wind up!

Can he catch?

That's a pertinent question.

If he can that would surely rule him out of securing the position at Knowsley Road.

The shoving a player into touch issue will be a bone of contention all season. Didn't St Helens also lift a Hull player (both feet off the ground) and carry him back over the try-line. I thought that was supposed to be a 'held' call followed by a penalty this season?



I think he has improved significantly since the intoduction of full-time officials and is the best video referee we have at the moment, a role I'd like to see him in full-time if only he wasn't needed in the middle.

Yes they did and yes it was.

Decision, drop out Hull.

expert analysts on Sky failed to pick it up.

Firstly, I think that Thaler's application of the rule was (IMO) correct and that Smith was wrong.

This rule is going to take some getting used to and I think we will have much issue for the first half of the season until it sorts itself out in ref's and fans minds.

It is the one leg lift which is going to cause the problem. To lift a players leg in the tackle, if he is upright, is an effective and well coached method to bring a player to the floor, perfectly fine and good. The rule as I understand it is supposed to stop a player being driven back or into touch, with only one leg on the floor, some distance from the mark (by this I mean point of first contact in tackle) and not a couple of yards. The ref is supposed to call the player held if he thinks that this is going to happen and the players should be given the chance to respond to that call. Let's face it, if you get more than one player in the tackle and one of them does lift the leg, the other player might have no idea in that first split second he is trying to push a player in to touch or over the line, that his team-mate has taken one leg from the floor.

As such ref's should be making judgement calls. If the tackle was very close to a line, say a couple of yards/metres, a leg gets lifted in the tackle and a player ends up over the line and it was clearly a well executed and fluid quick tackle then the touch or touch in goal should still be given as previous. If they tackle in a similar area but the tackle is more laboured and the ref does decide to call held then he has to give them some time to hear and respond. This might mean a player does end up over the line or gets put to the floor as part of the movement that prompted the ref to call held in the first place. In this situation, the ref should bring back the play the ball to the mark of the tackle and tell the players that he called held and therefore the tackled player is not in touch/touch in goal and should not automatically give a penalty. If they do not, in his opinion, respond to the held call at all or quickly, it is a penalty, or if they are clearly a good way off the line and also don't respond and carry on, penalty again.

I think Ben was right in the Saints game, it was close to the line, quick tackle, leg lifted to execute the tackle and bang, he was over the line. Good call.

Ian Smith, one player lifts the leg in the three man (?) tackle but close to the line, he shouts held, but as they hear and respond (which I think they did) he was in touch. He should (IMO again) just bring the play back to the mark and carry on, if the players accept with no argument fine, if they so much as pull a face at him, he can then penalise.

I fear though that this is going to be a point of discussion for many weeks to come!

I don't think the refereee is allowed to take them back to a mark once a player has gone into touch. As far as i'm aware (and I could be wrong) his only option is a scrum restart, a PTB for the opposition (last tackle) or a penalty if they continue after held is called. Unless they're Ganson they can't make the rules up as they go along.

And if a team-mate of the player being tackled and pushed adds weight to the tackle isn't that also to be called as held this season?

If so I feel St Helens were allowed to be pushed over the sideline with Gardner adding weight on one occassion in the 1st half resulting in a scrum head and feed to Hull. As this balanced the Hull player being carried (both feet airborn, IIRC) I felt justice was served through two bad calls according to my limited understanding of how the new interpretations will operate.

It's going to take some time and I fear the referees will struggle to get consistency from incident to incident as there are so many variables to consider. A bit like the interpretation over what constitutes obstruction these days.

Yes, according to the current interpretation of the rules, that is all he can do and here in lies the problem with this new interpretation. What I am suggesting is that they change that interpretation in this circumstance.

I did actual come up with an idea to make this a bit more simple in that we use the height of the tackled player as a guide to fans and the ref. If a player legs is lifted as part of a tackle and he is brought down within a distance equal to 'his height' from the mark, but over a line, or the players stop the drive or respond to the ref's call to hold, it stands as good and he is either in touch/touch in goal or play carries on. The point being that if a leg is lifted in the tackle and the player fell his 'full height', he would possibly be over the line anyway and not even moved of the mark and it also gives the ref and fans something to sort of measure in their minds on how far you can be driven with one leg lifted before the ref calls held or he is touch/touch in goal. Outside of this distance the ref gives a penalty full stop! Does that sound better?

Thats cheating

No, it is only if they drag not push/drive. They can push him the full length of the field and all join in (obviously in theory) if they want but as soon as they drag, it is held.

Could the way I think it should apply above, with my idea about the maximum height of the tackled player being the measure of length of drive or drag also work here? I think so, if a player pushes or drags and the player is as close to the line as his height at the point of first impact in the tackle, it is fine, outside that it is held or penalty if they don't stop?

I think that is a bloody good way to sort this rule out?

Or, lets actually put a set distance on it. If we said 2 metres (which is 6 1/2 foot) that would be easy for the ref and fans to judge given the current 10 metre 'lines' on the pitch wouldn't it?