Indeed.

Who'd have thunk that we'd have lost more counts than we won in 2006 & 2007? I wouldn't have, despite the evidence that discipline was slipping even then.




Bywater seems to have wised up and isn't biting even when he's been offered a 30 point start with 2 minutes to go.

Therefore, I'm going to play along.

The team's discipline this year has been poor. I think we agree on that.

Where we disagree is on where the culpability lies.

You've posted that its the coach's fault through his sending the players out too emotional. I disagree. The timing and type of penalties appears to back me up. We've later found that a number of players are conceding far fewer penalties this year than last, which again suggests the players aren't being sent out over psyched. I don't recall you or others offering any evidence to back up your theory.

I've posted my belief that its largely petulance on the part of the players that's the problem - something supported by the timing and type of penalties conceded. I don't know if you offer any acceptance of that theory. On looking at the stats I'd modify my belief - its not all the players that seem guilty of this as we've seen that several have improved records.

Irrespective of the cause, I think we'd both agree that the coach hasn't solved the problem. Where we'd differ there is that I suspect - based on those individually improved discipline stats again - that he has tried and partially succeeded; but that there remain a number of players causing problems.

Bywater has asked what you would do and your response was that you don't know - but its the coach's job. Not unreasonable, but its equally not unreasonable for us to speculate on what might be done - others have.

Most suggestions seem to be that the coach should fine or drop players.

Nobody is sure whether fines are already in place. Maybe they are but they're not working. Or maybe they're not.

In terms of dropping players, the obvious candidate is Kevin Sinfield: the worst offender, the player with the biggest down turn in discipline this year, the Captain who has become increasingly insolent to referees, and th eplayer who has publicly stated his belief that the problem is referees punishing Leeds unfairly. But can you drop your captain and goal kicker?

If you don't, and you drop someone else, what message does that send out to the squad or the Captain himself? Even if you do, who do you pick?

Kevin Sinfield 0.98
Ryan Bailey 0.85
Carl Ablett 0.71
Lee Smith 0.69
Luke Burgess 0.65
Jamie Jones-Buchannan 0.65
Danny Buderus 0.60
Brent Webb 0.56
Keith Senior 0.56
Jamie Peacock 0.55

That's the top 10. Bailey & Buderus are injured and with the current squad of players I'd have thought its very difficult to pick any of the others as sacrifial offerings.

That maybe just leaves reasoning with the players, something I'd speculate has happened already - particularly on account of a number of players having improved in this regard.

I still remember the good old days when the captain was rightly heading into Headingley immortality.

You've read something that isn't there.

I am Sinfield's greatest admirer. He's already attained immortal status with me.

However, unlike others, I am balanced in my appraisal, even when it comes to my favourites and there can be no doubt that Sinfield's form is poorer (and as Puig has demonstrated, his discipline) under Mclennan than it was under Smith.

He's still a vital cog though, as my earlier post acknowledged,.

Discipline I'll accept, form I'm not so sure.

Leeds were lost without him V Hull KR and while he was ineffective at Wigan I'm guessing he was short of being fully fit.

Leeds' most fluent performances this season have come with Sinfield at halfback with McGuire at scrum half.

I didn't see the HKR game.

My first post you quoted stated "albiet still a very important one in terms of our team".

He's simply not been the dominant force in the whole league that he was under Smith's stewardship.

Stop fog knitting and leave it to the likes of DISA.

Agreed. Arguably still the most important cog in the Leeds team.



Dominant force in the whole league is not how I ever saw Sinfield no matter who was the coach at Leeds. A player recognised far more within the club than he was perceived outside of it.

If he is in any way less influential at Leeds then I'm not seeing it.

If fitness and fatigue are the problems causing penalties, with a little bit of attitude, then anyone who gives away 2 or more penalties whould be made to do extra drills in front of the rest of the team.

It shows them up in front of their mates, and gets them that little bit fitter.

Or give them an extra days rest from training as they're struggling with the effects of over training due to a short off season, early WCC campaign and a small squad size preventing rotation.

I don't think the answer is always to do more or to do it harder.