I see.

So you don't want the discussion to go away from the original question by the first poster.

However, you're happy for the discussion to move in a different direction if it is in response to a question.

Do you have these rules written down anywhere or are they just in your head?

I was posting opinions about Tony Smith's abilities and merits as a coach. You're the one acting like a child. I'm not the first poster to label such accusations at you. By all means reply if you wish but I have no further desire to engage with you. I'll discuss any topics, whether they are strictly related to a thread or drift slightly, at my discretion, within the rules of the forum, with the grown ups, which doesn't include your good self. Welcome to the ignore function.

Sometimes I think we have forgotten just how hard it is to win a title. Our last three coaches have all done it multiple times so it looks like its easy.

Its also strange that all did arguably best with someone elses side. Smith took virtually Powells squad to the title in 04, Mclennan took Smiths squad to the title in 2008, and McDermott took Mclennans squad to the title in 2011.

McDermott is 5 years in now. So he has been here a bit longer than Smith, and two titles and a challenge cup puts him slightly ahead of Smith at Leeds. But its hard to argue Smith hasn't done well at Wire.

My personal opinion is that if McDermott gets Leeds over the line again he has put a real big marker down, not just because it will be his 3rd title, but because he will have won it with what it undoubtedly 'his' team, a squad he built, and Smith, as good a job as he has done at wire, has had plenty of time to do that and so far not got them there.

But if we continue to keep winning and some of the top sides knocking points off each other we could finish so far in front we could rest a few or manage some of the older guys in the play offs

If we can beat Wigan tomorrow and not get into their my cock is bigger than yours type of game that they love, we are almost guaranteed to finish in the top two. I can't see Leeds dropping six points on Wigan with the fixtures we have going forward, Wigan have Hudds, Saints, Wire away and Leeds at home to name but a few and they have one of the worst away records in the comp, I would say only Saints would be a danger to finishing above after that and we have them at home to come. It's in our hands if we finish top we get easier games in the play off to cement a top 2 position. Injuries permitting of course.

Sal last year is different to this year IMO, challenge cup is there, but it's not as important to Leeds so the focus will be maintained in the League IMO.

It can do, however when I made a post about the original point you then quoted it by saying "but he's an excellent coach though"......hence the quite accurate reply of that wasn't the point being discussed. I didn't ever once say you couldn't say what you wanted, I merely pointed out that you were missing the point, so stop spitting the dummy out like I've demanded you can't say what you like. You're free to post what you want just as I was free to take you up on it.

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Jesus I've really hit a sensitive spot for you by criticising Tony Smith haven't i. Usually a calm and mature poster and one I think of as one of the best on here but you're having a right little hissy fit over this thread. Making it out as if I've had a right go at you about some thread derailment when all I said was "you're missing the point". Thought that could be the marker for you to then share your view on the original issue seen as though you were quoted my post and my post was about the original question, instead though your bottom lip has come further and further out unfortunately.

I think that might just be the most positive thing you've ever said on here

Not saying Smith had little to do with it or that's he a bad coach. He's obviously a very good coach but one I think is overrated by some into a "excellent" bracket. As for 2003 and people saying Powell came up short, yes well he did but then so did Smith himself in 2005 and 2006, both to teams we should've beaten really especially in 2006. Whilst the players were a year older which is important given how young some were to first team action like McGuire at the time, you also add in some other pieces like Marcus Bai and then you get Lauitiiti throughout the season. What did Powell get halfway through his 2003 season? Bailey and Chev Walker going to jail for the rest of the campaign. How would Smiths season gone if that'd happened in 2004? We saw how easily things crumbled when Senior got injured in '05.

True but you've had several different "that'll be the true test of this Leeds team" points. It was games against other top 4/5 teams, then it was the Magic weekend purely based on last year's game. Now it's those 7 games at the end. Which is it?



I don't, I thought given the fixtures with so many away from home in the first half of the season that we'd have to play catch up from possibly outside the top 4 after Magic Weekend with our run of home games.



True but again as has been pointed out to you by another poster, you're seemingly obsessed with events of last season and that they'll repeat themselves almost identically. Think we've seen enough that the team is a very different one than the one who played the last two seasons even if the personal change isn't massive. I'm sure some of the usual suspects said we couldn't look back to 2012 and expect it happen again in 2013.



Frustrating but one of those halves we're inevitably going to have at times if we try to always play that keep it alive style.



But let's be honest now, you were hardly preaching patience after the Widnes defeat and only 1 point from 6. It was all a case of Wigan and Hudds and Wire are steaming up behind and are going to become too hot for us to contend with and you couldn't see anyway we'd finish 1st and a GF win would be a massive shock. If that's not a lack of patience to results I don't know what is. You express very little patience in a negative way when we have a few bad games. Similarly you express little patience in a positive way when a rival wins a few games.

On the Hull KR game keeping the ball alive has nothing to do with abject defending!! The point about the post was it was in response to a thread suggesting there was little interest in the game - woosh!!

I have consistently said the games after the split will determine how Leeds finish. Leeds have got 4 home games left and 4 away games if you count Magic 2 of which are against Wigan - team even you concede are good at home. This idea that Leeds have a host of home games is a fallacy. I still don't see Leeds finishing top after the split - the key players are too old to play intense rugby week in week out for seven straight weeks especially if the reach the CC final - I could be wrong but so could you.

Unlike you I don't write off teams like Saints, Wigan, Warrington these guys will have a say come the end of the season - I still expect Saints to finish top at the end of the regular rounds. I don't think Leeds can play much better than they have whilst I think the other teams have some improvement in them and they have younger deeper squads. Time will tell.

The team were never the same after Magic, Wigan dinted their confidence and it never returned - the Catalan play off game should have been a stroll but it wasn't the team didn't believe. In 2005 Leeds were cruising - the dominant side until the Catalan away game - something happened there between the team and Smith and things were never the same until he announced his departure for the England job in 2007. You dismiss that notion that is your choice but just as in games a shift in momentum can be difficult to redress. That is why tomorrow's game is so interesting - its impact on the rest of the season could be nothing could be significant. Professional sport is as much about what goes on inside your head as it is about your physical prowess do Leeds "really" believe they can win the GF?

My point was that you couldn't wait (patience again) to see how the 2nd 40 turned out and came rushing on here to tell us how Leeds hadn't turned up. Granted some of those defensive efforts should've been better for HKR's tries but the problem lay with letting start sets in our half and around the halfway mark from giving the ball away. It wasn't like they were going 80/90m down field against us to score and we know HKR have some attacking quality and make defences look bad.



Only since Leeds started topping the table by a nice gap. At the start of the season you thought we'd be a lot further down and realistically out of reach of the top 4 by the time the split happened lingering around 7th place.



They do, or are you disregarding those home games against lower teams we still have to play? Because they'll still count to the table if we win them. You don't just get 2 points for beating other top 4 teams you know. We have 4 away games against top 8 teams to come (if we count Wigan at Magic as away). If we're top by the split then our away games are against 4th place, 7th place and 8th place. Not as daunting as it sounds now.



Our key players are different this year. Yes sure Sinfield and Peacock still play a big part but look at our best performers this year like Aiton, Cuthbertson, Ward, Watkins. Hardaker is starting to find form and Hall has made a good return to the side from injury and soon we can add Briscoe who looked very impressive before injury. Reality is the team (as a whole) isn't as old as people make out, they're still stuck about 18-24 months back.



Ermmmm, I've never written those teams off for winning things. Stated all along that whoever makes the top 4 it will be a coin toss to see who wins the GF as any of those teams can hit hot form for those two weeks and beat the others.



Could well be them. IF both ourselves and Saints win over this weekend I can see it being a two horse race for top spot.



Really? You don't think we can play much better than what we have? Most seem to agree we haven't really put in any real 80 mins performances, hell sometimes not even many full 40 mins performances yet we're still beating teams and the defence has plenty of improvement in them. For the likes of Wigan and Warrington it's not so much about improvement, they've had games when they've shown what they can do. It's consistancy for those two as they seem to struggle to perform away from home in Wigan's case or string together several weeks in Warrington's case.



I think questioning whether these guys have doubts about if they can win the GF is far fetched. Will they play good enough come playoffs is yet to be seen but will any potential failure be because they don't believe they can really win it? Pffttt, we aren't Huddersfield.

Again I agree about how important the mental side of the game is. I just don't get how you can then ignore the players focus. For a confidence shot team as you think they were, they produced two very well organised and confident performances in the midst of that period to win the cup. The other week the win over Hudds again showed what the difference can be when the focus is on. There was no confidence issues in that game, no fretting about only 1 point from our last 6, no panic over letting a big lead slip against Hudds just a few weeks before.

Let us have a go at answering your points:

1. I have always said the games after the split will determine where Leeds finish. If the last few games are anything to go by they are going to struggle - nothing suggests otherwise.

2. Hull KR showed their attacking prowess against Wigan - get real don't defend the indefensible.

3. You confident Leeds will finish top - your theory about 4th 7th and 8th - could go straight out of the window - what happens if they finish 2nd?

4. You seriously think Leeds didn't focus tonight it wasn't a big enough game? They gave it their best shot but their best shot wasn't sufficient once again? This is a team that conceded 50 points last week - must be the CC in 4 weeks?

5. The team team is a year older: Sinfield, Burrow, Peacock, McGuire, Ablett, Moon, JJB are all a year old that is the spine of the team - the team is older and the squad is thinner. If Hardaker has done his ankle ligaments the depth of the squad in the backs will really be exposed.

Leeds haven't got near the GF for two years you think they really believe if Saints, Wigan or Warrington turn up with all guns blazing this Leeds side genuinely believe they can beat them? Warrington know they can beat Leeds so do Wigan.

This year's side has been better to watch by far. But like last year, we have a fundamental inability to outperform our opponents at the basics. And there are many occasions in every season when it's imperative to do so.

This may not prevent us winning the odd trophy but we'll certainly not dominate the game until it's addressed.

So, we come to conclusion that Smith was a factor in the success of the 2004 season but the extent to which he contributed is in question? I can live with that.